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Royal Lodge Stakes

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What the Nation is saying about the Royal Lodge Stakes...

Frankel, on Top of the World

After Frankel rolled by Cirrus Des Aigles in the grade one Champion Stakes, extending his record to an unbeaten 14 for 14, there was only one thought in my mind… I had just witnessed the greatest horse to ever race of all time.Read More

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BrianZipse · The best of all-time is too hard for me to compare, but ... I have no doubt that he is one of the best I've ever seen in 40 years of watching the races. · 209 days ago ·

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DanMunn1 · Great article but I'm baffled by the comment about the 'clueless ride' on Bullet Train? It was one of the smartest pieces of riding I've seen! Frankel misses the beat, Ian Mongon drops back to keep in touch as planned? · 209 days ago ·

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DeadHeat · Dan, I say that because I feel he stayed back way too long. Bullet Train is a pacemaker, would that mean his job is to make sure Frankel gets a good pace to run at, especially after the break left him behind Cirrus Des Aigles? I can understand staying back for a bit to make sure he's ok, but after that get up there and make things tough on the leaders like you're supposed to. That is where i got clueless from. Brian, you are no stranger to hard comparisons with your Star of the Week. I figured I'd bite the bullet this time :) · 209 days ago ·

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LAZMANNICK · Really? And of course you have seen so many. Not to take away from his brilliance, but I think that is quite a stretch, in fact, not really worth arguing about. And that “clueless ride” as you so aptly put it on Bullet Train. Maybe you should have listened to the commentator during the running of the race. Bullet Train's sole purpose was to "drag Frankel along" as he put it. To me that doesn’t define “rabbit”. It’s more like a NASCAR strategy where teams race and one sets it up for another. Of course Frankel didn’t need any help. I don’t think he ever did and I’m glad his break was slow and he more or less did it on his own. Frankel! Great horse yes. Greatest of all time? Whatever you think. · 209 days ago ·

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DeadHeat · Laz, I have watched enough to formulate an opinion, and i just gave over 1000 words of facts to back it up. Please, if you'd like to slam, give us your top horse and why? If you can't walk the walk, then don't talk the talk. Also, I'm not the only one with that opinion of the ride on Bullet Train, there were also commentators who shared that same opinion. · 209 days ago ·

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DanMunn1 · Dani. Race tactics and planning, as confirmed on course by connections were not to make it a testing gallop. It was to assist with the settling of Frankel. This is why he's been the 'tow' for all of the racecourse gallops too, not to make a testing gallop as Frankel, in honesty, was the most dubious stayer of the pack over 10f. · 209 days ago ·

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cocoa2 · Okay, I'll take a stab here, dani. Would you like for me to argue against your claim with Frankel as the best ever with Dubai Millenium, Ribot, Shergar, Man O' War, Kelso, Brigadier Gerard, or Ruffian? · 209 days ago ·

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cocoa2 · If you want I'll take Frankel and Dr. Fager for best miler of all time? · 209 days ago ·

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AndyScoggin · If Frankel is the best horse in the world, I don't think there needed to be a lot of worry about the pace or the condition of the turf. Outstanding horses find ways to win races. · 209 days ago ·

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DeadHeat · Dan, while I understand that, after he noticed Frankel didn't need his assistance he should have gone about his own business, and he did. And to watch the race, once Bullet Train did move to the front he did indeed make the pace quicken, so the comment about not making the pace a testing gallop would have seemed to have gone out the window. It was an indecisive ride. Either stay back, like the connections apperently wanted, or go up and press the pace like the term pace maker would imply. You also say Frankel was questionable at that distance...How? He had won going 10.5 furlongs in his last race and won by open lengths. That would have taken care of the question mark hanging over the "can he get the distance?" question. · 209 days ago ·

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cocoa2 · Andy, Sysonby and Man O' War and Native Dancer would have to disagree on that one. lol. But I do agree that outstanding horses do find ways to win that other horses simply cannot. RA for example, those fractions in the Haskell(?) were like a 5f sprint. · 209 days ago ·

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DanMunn1 · Dani. I said most dubious stayer of the pack. All of the other rivals had proven their stamina on more than one occasion over 10f on that kind of ground. To be honest, I heard the tactics from the connections themselves and, to be honest, I'm not getting into an argument with someone less than 24hrs after I witnessed the greatest race of my life as it'll spoil it so I'll leave you to it. · 209 days ago ·

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GregRiessland · frankel is the best as it showed he can win from anyway where. he will crush you from anywhere on the track. it was great watching all his races, fantastic horse · 209 days ago ·

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SteveHerron · Declaring Frankel the greatest of all time seems to be driven more by emotion rather than historical perspective. While I have no problem saying he's one of the best European runners of all time, let's not forget he's only run 14 races, with an average of 4.3 races per year. Not to mention that Frankel never once faced his elders without the help of the hopeless pacemaker, Bullet Train. I don't doubt Frankel is a freak and will always have a place in history as one of the best, but I feel it's a bit of a double standard when some are flabbergasted when they hear people even suggest that Zenyatta was the greatest female racehorse in history, while at the same time having absolutely no doubt Frankel deserves the #1 spot, despite not having even run in the most prestigious race in Europe, the Arc D’Triomphe. I love Frankel, but there are simply too many other great horses in history for me to say he is without a doubt the best ever. · 209 days ago ·

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LAZMANNICK · I don’t recall slamming your piece Dead-Heat. My bad. I just had the audacity of not agreeing with it. I agree that Frankel is brilliant, but to call him the best ever is definitely a stretch. He never faced a Sea Bird, Nijinsky, Ribot, Mill Reef, Alleged, Brigadier Gerard, Miesque, and more recently Zarkava and Sea the Stars, etc. and etc.; and that’s just confining it to some of the great European horses. Forget about the Orient and to some degree the Middle-East. And I won’t even bother bringing up American dirt horses like Citation, Seattle Slew, etc., or American horses that were proficient on turf into the conversation like Secretariat, Kelso, Lure, Dr. Fager and many more. I would love to see how Frankel would have stacked up against Round Table, a horse that won at 9 different distances between 6F and 13F and who carried weights ranging from 130 to 136 lbs. to victory 16 times, and every time giving away large spreads of weight. He won 14 of 16 career turf races, losing one when he finished last after sustaining and injury, and the United Nations Hdcp by a half-length when giving the winner 17 lbs (130 to 113) and breaking the track record by a full second to boot. Frankel never really gave weight in his career. He might have carried heavy weights at times, but so did his main competitors. As for distances, the great filly Zarkava was a top miler and also won two 12F races including the Arc, both those wins at three and both against older horses. She won all her races coming from behind with a whirlwind finish, and won them easily in margins from 2 to 3 lengths, which was all she needed to do to show her dominance. STS won in multiple distances ranging from 7F to 12F and four times as a three year old defeated the best older horses in Europe, including Conduit, a two time BC Turf winner and IMO a much better horse than SN Abby. Maybe you forgot, or maybe you aren’t really aware of the dominance of unbeaten Ribot a two-time Arc winner; Nijinsky’s great TC run; Brigadier Gerard’s incredible 17 wins in 18 starts, his only loss when Roberto ran a race of a lifetime; Alleged’s 9 wins in 10 starts, 6 of them at 12F; Sea Bird absolutely humbling one of the deepest Arc fields of all time; Mill Reef, like Brigadier Gerard, winning important races in distances from 6F to 12F during his stellar career, one of those losses to Brigadier Gerard. I could go on and fill several pages about these great horse’s accomplishments and then make a comparison to Frankel’s career and the quality of many of the horses that he faced and compare it to the quality of many of the horses that they faced, but I have a feeling it would be lost on you. · 209 days ago ·

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rafirox · Obviously Dani is clueless about this subject. Bullet Train was ridden great yesterday. The point was, he didn't want to go out up front and kill Bullet Train, then the other pace maker would slow the race down. Bullet Train waited, applying pressure. Then, he quickened up the pace in the middle of the race to tire the other one out. · 209 days ago ·

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DeadHeat · Laz, if you aren't willing to stick your neck out and pick one horse, before picking apart another then you have no right to pick. Disagree if you will, but at least i picked one horse, and backed it up. You say he never faced a some of the greats...Canford Cliffs beat Goldikova, one of the most well respected milers in Europe, Immortal Verse did the same and he beat that one as well. If you wish to slam his competition, then first look at who he beat. Three champions are there, and many multiple groupe one winners. Also, many of those greats never faced the likes of the others you listed. Double standard there. Zarkava, while versatile, never raced under a mile nor past three. You mention triple crown runs, that's great and brilliant stretch of running, Frankel was brilliant his whole career. Many would argue that Cirrus Des Aigles ran a race of a lifetime, Frankel won. Great horses win, and he won no matter what, he was brilliant no matter what, and did it over a span of 3 seasons. These horses are great, but they had their flaws. Frankel had none. · 209 days ago ·

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cocoa2 · Dani I let you PICK a horse and you still won't debate with me. And aren't you the writer of dead heat DEBATES? · 209 days ago ·

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cocoa2 · It is important to remember how Frankel's biggest loss was when the field got away from him. Bullet Train did not need to act as a rabbit, he was to act like a teacher and keep little nutty Frankel out of his own whackjob mind. · 209 days ago ·

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DeadHeat · Cocoa, pick any horse you want. Not really fair for me to pick one. You want to pick one of the ones you listed at random, and i'll debate it with you, it could be fun ;) At three i might agree with your last statement, but at four, I don't think Frankel ever really needed Bullet Train. His unflappable attitude in the Champion demonstrates that. · 209 days ago ·

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cocoa2 · The good doctor might be a good candidate but I think I'll go with Ribot. EVERY horse is governed by pace. Some, like Ruffian, were not governed as much as a horse such as Dr. Fager when he faced the rabbit in the 67(?) woodward. · 209 days ago ·

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LAZMANNICK · Dani, first of all I didn’t pick apart Frankel so maybe instead of getting all hot headed and uptight and self-righteous because someone (of many) doesn’t happen to agree with you, you should actually try to comprehend what was written. I simply stated that Frankel isn’t, nor will he ever be, the best ever. That’s my opinion and I hope that like you I’m allowed to have one. As far as picking a horse, I thought I just picked a dozen or so. In fact I will go as far to say that Frankel would have met his match with Round Table alone. Round Table ran during four years; was a top rated three year old in what was arguably the deepest American three year old dirt crop ever; ran 66 times in his career and often ran three and sometimes four races in a single month against the top competition in N/A; won at multiple distances from 6F to 13F; won 16 races carrying 130 to 136 lbs. and always gave large amounts of weight; 16 times ran the fastest three year time for various distances at different tracks; on dirt won a 10F Hollywood Gold Cup at three in 1.58.3/5 (one of four sub 2 minute 10F races on dirt in his career); a mile on dirt in 1.33 2/5 while carrying 130 lbs., 9F in 1.46 4/5 carrying 130 lbs.; and on turf won at 9F in 1.47 1/5 carrying 132 lbs. and 10F in 1.58 2/5 carrying 132 lbs. Arguably he was the best American Turf Horse all time and it’s a shame that he never got the chance to run in Europe. And yet as good as Round Table was, there are many N/A horses rated well ahead of him, though if the rating was based on turf racing alone he would have been included among the best with Secretariat, Kelso, Fort Marcy and Dr. Fager, all of which proved their prowess on dirt, but in their limited starts on turf also showed their brilliance. As for Frankel and the so called incomperable competition that he has faced let’s see: Slim Shadey won a G2 in N/A and was dusted by Little Mike and Acclamation in G1 races and Bourbon Bay in a G2; Treasure Beach is a nice horse but didn’t Point of Entry just run away from him in the Turf Classic and I don’t hear where that one is included in the discussion as best ever; Dream Ahead (a US bred) improved greatly after Frankel; Farhh who finished second to Frankel twice in a row and both at equal weights has still never won a G1 race. As of this writing he won 3 of 8 starts. Cirrus Des Aigles has won 16 and lost TWENTY-NINE of his lifetime starts. A couple of starts ago he wasn’t even close to Golden Lilac (the best that one has beaten was Galikova who in turn beat her, and Galikova was no match for Danedream, another that Frankel never faced); and Planteur, a single G1 winner. Excelebration is a good miler but certainly no better than Canford Cliffs, Miesque, or even Goldikova. The best horse he has beaten appears to be Cityscape, yesterday, and a few weeks back Wise Dan humbled that one into defeat and won with much to spare. Nathanial is a very good horse, but I don’t think he is the horse he was last year, certainly not in the final furlong. St. Nicholas Abby has won a single race this year and as has often been stated is at his best at 12F (he faced Frankel at 10F though I don’t think he would beat Frankel at 12F either) a distance that Frankel has never tried, not that I’m holding that against him because I’m not. As for SNA’s BC Turf win, Conduit beat tougher fields during both his wins and Conduit was definitely no match for Sea The Stars. To put it bluntly, Frankel never met the quality of horses that I stated in my previous post and I guarantee, and so will many others, that he would never dominate any of them, even if he was good enough to win a few races against them, the way he dominates the bunch he has faced in his career. · 209 days ago ·

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Buckpasser · Frankel is a great horse and well deserving of the accolades. The best ever in Europe, I would have to give that to Ribot. The best Euro I ever saw race would have to be Brigadier Gerrard. Best American horse is one of the ones I saw race multiple times and that would Kelso. · 209 days ago ·

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DeadHeat · cocoa, looking at their records and comparing, I have to say, the two horses strike me as very similar. Both top two year olds, both top three year olds and both dominant older horses. It would seem to me Ribot was race at distances, where Frankel remained at a mile for most of his career. Both could do short, both could also stretch out, both could run over any kind of conditions as well. Both also had the brilliance factor. After looking at his record, I would not argue with anyone who wished to pick Ribot as the best. I personally would still choose Frankel, and in this case one could say that it is more of a bias, since I was able to witness him in action and was not Ribot. However, I would still not argue with one who would call Ribot the best of all time. Laz, you are bias and twist the facts to suite you. If I remember correctly, when comparing Zapper and Curlin's competition, you noted how many wonderous horse's Zapper faced, but failed to mention that most of the horses you listed only reached their full peak after they met Zapper. However, here you pick out Dream Ahead, saying he became much better after facing Frankel. You also choose to slam Cirrus, tell me, Laz, what is that horse's recent form? What is his form over soft ground? I'll save you the time, his recent for is a romping win in his last start and he is know to relish, yes, relish soft going. Again, don't pick and choose facts. No need to act like a politician. Excelebration, if not for Frankel would be one of the most dominant milers in Europe as of now. I seriously doubt anyone on either side of the pond would deny that, so slandering him, especially after the QEII win, won't get you anywhere. You say Nathaniel is not the same horse, really? A grade one winner this year, second twice behind last year's Arc winner and the outstanding filly Snow Fairy. His only other start was a third in the champion behind the Frankel and the race's defendig champion. Hardly seems like he has taken a drop in form. Also you compare him to Round Table. Sorry, but it is no secret that American tracks are firmer, faster, and flater, meaning you will most likely see faster times on our side of the pond. So listing times, and trying to use them to prove dominance, is reaching just a bit. At the conclusion of this, I think it's very clear of your bias against Frankel, for he clearly did face quality horses throughout his entire career, a fact you refuse to acknowledge. However, the great thing about America is that you can have your opinion and you have the right to choose to ignore facts. Have a good night Laz. · 209 days ago ·

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LAZMANNICK · Dani. Sorry. I don’t twist the facts, I state them. For instance, when Saint Liam ran that head-to-head Woodward against Ghostzapper, it’s true, he still wasn’t a G1 winner. That would come immediately after. However, with the possible exception of the Whitney, in which he finished second to Commentator the following year, the race he ran that day against Ghostzapper was as good or better than any race he would subsequently run during the remainder of his career and that includes wins in the Clark, Donn, Foster, Woodward and BCC. That day he ran on the lead with lights out fractions of 45 3/5, 1.08 3/5, 1.33 1/5 and finished in 1.46 1/5 and he did it while carrying 126 lbs. That performance wasn’t a fluke. It was because he was good with a capital G. Roses in May had already won a Whitney and in his final two races after the BCC loss to GZ would finish 2nd in that Donn to St. Liam and then win the World Cup. Pleasantly Perfect had already won a Pacific Classic, Dubai World Cup and BCC before being soundly defeated by Ghostzapper. Where’s the bias? Here’s a bias though. When Zenyatta defeated Twice Over the feeling was so what, Twice Over wasn’t all that much to begin with, and yet when Frankel defeats him he defeated a really good horse. Here’s another. Dream Ahead, whom Frankel defeated in 2011, was a multi G1 winner of two races before they met and I believe three after. However, he never won a G1 past 7F his absolute limit (they never even entered him in a longer race). The majority of his wins were at 6F and two at 7F, not at a mile. And yes, he was much better after Frankel. He defeated Goldikova in his final start. I doubt very much he would have even warmed her up before he faced Frankel. As for Cirrus and any advantage he was supposed to have because of the soft turf. It seems to me that Frankel won two races this year on turf listed as yielding including the Queen Anne Stakes when he defeated Excelebration by 11 lengths. Yielding is considered slower and deeper than soft. So tell me, who had the advantage? As for Nathanial. He has all of a SINGLE win this year period. News flash. Two other horses have defeated him besides Frankel. Maybe you should include them in your analysis for the Best Ever. As for Round Table, I only mentioned his fast times to show his quality and ability to run on different surfaces and at different distances and while carrying heavy weights and giving a lot of weight to his opponents, and this at a particular time in America when race surfaces weren’t all that fast, certainly nowhere near as fast as they are now. He also ran and won on various types of off tracks. I know that in Euro racing times aren’t important and I’m sure that if Frankel would have run on fast turf course without hills he would have run some really fast times too. I also mentioned Round Table because he ran 66 times over four years, came back after a bad leg injury, gave vast advantages to his competitors race in and race out, had a stellar record and yet wasn’t even in the top 16 in the Bloodhorse top 100. I could still name 10 European horses that I would rate ahead of Frankel, but that would be a waste of my time. I will state that IMO Frankel is an all-time great, one of many all-time greats, not just a few all-time greats. But to say he’s better than Ribot, for instance, is like you said, your opinion. Here’s an analogy for his second Arc win: Longchamp - 2,400m WON - cantered to victory by an official 6 lengths, never off the bit at any time from Talgo (horse) in second, beating a field consisting of the English Oaks winner, French Oaks winner, two Irish Derby winners, Grand Prix de Paris winner, French St Leger winner, Laurel Invitational winner and the runner up in the Belmont Stakes. Photographs suggest that the winning margin was more like eight and a half lengths. Frankel never faced a deep field like that. · 209 days ago ·

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travel_vic · EVER? ALL time? surely you jest. the breed has been around, officially since about 1750, and it ALL THAT TIME this one is BEST? Hogwash · 209 days ago ·

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icyhotboo · LAZMANNICK, Buckpasser, travel_vic, footlick, Mary Z, zxswordxz, cocoa2, and others who don't come to mind right now but are here, thank you for the balance, objectivity and facts you provide on this sight which also gives me the luxury of sitting back and reading a thread with thorough enjoyment, and many times amusement. Dani, I realize you're involved in this sport and have first hand knowledge of thoroughbred's and as you've stated have studied racing for 10 years. However some points of view I have. The above mentioned people along with others have centuries of both first hand knowledge and study. To keep this short the most important aspect of any argument you take part in (and you can look through your comments) is you have never felt you were in error on a single point, let alone any argument. If you really want intelligent converstation I suggest in all good faith you entertain the possiblity you're not infallable. I say this because you have great potential as a contributor but not with the absolute "need to be right" attitude which will be your undoing. If I didn't think you were worth it I wouldn't waste my time, but I do, so I hope you take this as constructive. Have a nice evening. · 209 days ago ·

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railbird33 · Greatest horse ever,,, always brings out the best comments on this site. One piece of information I would like to see, did Frankel set any stakes or track records in his fourteen wins. ?? That's the true test of the greatest, not beating the other horses in the gate IMO · 208 days ago ·

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travel_vic · If your horse blows away field after field, WHY push him to gain some track record. There is no bonus money for that. · 208 days ago ·

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travel_vic · Test of greatness are all about ADAPTATION and that often is overcoming things normally a handicap: weight carrying, running in differeing styles over differing surfaces, in all weather, with different riders, and against the best. Take a horse like JOhn Henry: longevity, weight carrying, took on all comers on both surfaces for a LONG time. Those accumulative accolades spell champion. · 208 days ago ·

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travel_vic · Or, find a horse that just changes the history of the game with a uniqueness heretofore never seen: Speed Fager, overcoming racing style: Zenyatta, PURE speed at a distance too; Secretariat. These were not perfect but so unique that they deserve the title of immortals in racing. · 208 days ago ·

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dani.pugh · railbird, that is by far the worst test. A record is nice to have, but a lot of things can go into times, one of the biggest being the track. Quality Road set a record in the Florida Derby, but it was his Donn record i respect, since his FD record came over a very souped up track. Position and pace can also play a huge roll in that. If the pace is slow, you most likely won't see a closer rushing up and getting a record. Sometimes even when the pace is quick a closer may not set a record due to a pace meltdown. Brilliance, body of work, longevity, and versatility are all much better ways to assess a horse's greatness. · 208 days ago ·

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Mary Z. · Thanks, icy. I enjoy your comments, too. Tim, don't feel left out :) · 208 days ago ·

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footlick · Thanks icy. It is nice to be included in that group. You bring alot to the table also, don't forget. I especially appreciate you knowledge on standardbreds. · 208 days ago ·

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travel_vic · COcoa again shows his ignornace. NOT every horse is governed by pace. Affirmed and Fager WERE the pace and evey one else reacted to them · 208 days ago ·

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railbird33 · As T_V and others have pointed out, greatness doesn't have a clear measure; wins, times, earnings, competiton, endurance, can all figure into the mix. In my 40 + years as a handicapper and fan, I know I've missed 90% of the great ones. · 208 days ago ·

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Buckpasser · Icy. Very flattered to be included in such a group. Always love hearing from a fellow harness fan and well as someone who knows betting and thoroughbred racing as well as you do. · 208 days ago ·

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bernardini3 · Frankel is obviously an amazing horse which can be and should be understood by all horsemen. But there is no way I could possibly classify Frankel ast he greatest horse of all time. He never ventured from where he was comfortable to challenge the champions of America. Now we'll never know how good he truly was... · 208 days ago ·

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bernardini3 · Frankel is obviously an amazing horse which can be and should be understood by all horsemen. But there is no way I could possibly classify Frankel ast he greatest horse of all time. He never ventured from where he was comfortable to challenge the champions of America. Now we'll never know how good he truly was... · 208 days ago ·

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dani.pugh · Bernardini, how often do American champions travel to Europe? almost never. enough with the double standards. · 208 days ago ·

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cocoa2 · Travel_vic again shows his ignorance. Dr. Fager was beat by 15 lengths due to him being governed by pace. Affirmed was also governed by pace. If he was pressed a closer could come and win. Ignorance, pure ignorance. · 208 days ago ·

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likin sparks · Good write up Laura and yes Frankel has been one of the greatest in modern times. · 208 days ago ·

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travel_vic · you made a blanket statement about ALL races are goverened ypace. NOT when a horse gets out front and dictates it to the entire field, they are not afffected by it. · 208 days ago ·

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freddycaple · Definitely a great. Say "all time" really is difficult when thinking about it over a span of time. So much changes over the years. I do believe he is one of the greatest though. derbydeals.com · 207 days ago ·

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likin sparks · One thing I really admire is that Frankel went all 14 with out any race day medication. Just shows that horses can be freaks without doping. · 207 days ago ·

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travel_vic · There are many who believe Secretariat "couldn't have been so dominant" without drugs, but then they never stood next to him like I did, tiwce, and no different. · 207 days ago ·

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ILuvTurfRacing · I think it's really difficult to compare the all-time great horses across generations, but I agree with Brian Zipse. In my 30+ years now of following the sport Frankel is definitely among the very best horses I've ever seen!! I don't know that I can remember any other horse who's first big initial burst of speed when ask for run just left fields for dead the way Frankel's initial burst did. The "so-called" experts and racing fans alike will be debating for years to come whether Frankel was the greatest of all time or not? Regardless of whether you feel he was or wasn't? We're not likely to see another horse of his caliber for another 20 or 30 years, IMO. I think everyone would agree that Frankel was absolutely an amazing animal to watch on a racetrack!! · 207 days ago ·

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likin sparks · You know TV, many of us would envy that and just being able to see Secretariat or Frankel race live would be a life lasting memory. · 207 days ago ·

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travel_vic · ALL here, owe it to yourself to save your money, write the various farms in and around Lexington, and go there. GO THERE in November: not much going on, it is cold so many stay away. it is often just you and the stallion as it was for me an Alydar, Sect, Bid, Cougar, Ack Ack, Prospector, Tom Rolfe, In Reality, Dmascus, Polish Navy, Nijinsky, Ferdinand, Cox's Ridge, Slew, Slew O'Gold, Gato del Sol, Bodl Forbes,Exceller, ....when you are there by yourself, you "own" the place. Al the fams addresses are on line. Devil's Bag, Danzig etc all there to see one on one when I visited in November. · 207 days ago ·

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notobsessed · Great advice, tv! I'd much rather see them up close like that and plan on doing a farm tour in a coiuple of years. · 207 days ago ·

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notobsessed · right after I learn to type · 207 days ago ·

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