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2012 Woodbine Mile (G1)

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Date/Track:

9/16/2012, Woodbine

Distance:

1 mile (Turf)

Age/Sex:

3+ M

Time:

1:34.07

*Rank is current Power Ranking among all active horses, based on highest HRN rating. Rating is based on HRN member voting.

Fin

Silks

Horse / Sire

Rating

Trainer / Jockey

Last Start / Next Start

HRN

1st

Wise Dan
Wiseman's Ferry

8.36

C. Lopresti
J. Velazquez

1st, 2013 Woodford Reserve Turf Classic (G1)

Jun 29 - Firecracker Handicap (G2)

6-5

2nd

Hunters Bay
Ghostzapper

6.89

R. Baker
E. Wilson

2nd, 2012 Woodbine Mile (G1)

3rd

Cityscape
Selkirk

8.04

R. Charlton
J. Doyle

12th, 2013 Lockinge Stakes (G1)

4th

Riding The River
Wiseman's Ferry

D. Cotey
P. Husbands

2nd, 2013 Connaught Cup (C2)

5th

Dance And Dance
Royal Applause

4.84

E. Vaughan
G. Gomez

8th, 2013 Hambleton Handicap (LS)

6th

Big Band Sound
Bernstein

4.79

D. Vella
T. Pizarro

5th, 2012 Mt. Sassafras (LS)

7th

Worthadd
Dubawi

S. Prescott
L. Contreras

11th, 2012 Shadwell Turf Mile (G1)

8th

Hollinger
Black Minnaloushe

5.56

R. Attfield
A. Solis

4th, Kee Allow (4/14/2013-R7)

9th

Artic Fern
Langfuhr

5.09

M. Keogh
J. Stein

9th, 2013 Connaught Cup (C2)

What the Nation is saying about the 2012 Woodbine Mile (G1)...

Horse of the Year Point/Counterpoint: Wise Dan vs Royal Delta

Which of these two champions will take the ultimate Eclipse award?Read More

Show All 49 Comments
Mary Z. · Royal Delta is not a HOTY candidate for 2012. For top older female she is up against Groupie Doll and whichever female takes that award, I will not be disappointed. Of course Royal Delta is my personal favorite. Of the HOTY candidates, IHA, P.O.E., and Wise Dan, I'm still thinking about it. · 223 days ago ·

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Mary Z. · Please correct the duplicate paragraph in the Royal Delta side of the debate. The stumble start/rushing up in the Gulfstream too short for her anyway prep was left out, as was the Fleur De Lis beautiful romp over far beneath her females. Plus, Mike Smith placed plenty of the blame for the Personal Ensign on himself and I agree with that. · 223 days ago ·

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DebbieBaucom · Either would be great - leaning toward Royal Delta · 223 days ago ·

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zxswordxz · Wise Dan get my vote. · 223 days ago ·

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GregRiessland · this should be between dan and larend not delta. id give it to delta only if she beat mmm and fort larend, but you don't even have to win the classic anymore for hoy ridiculous. · 223 days ago ·

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zatt · Hoping my side of this argument puts the Horse of the Year talk to bed early with a comfy blanket and sweet dreams. · 223 days ago ·

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GregRiessland · exsuxe me fort Larned* · 223 days ago ·

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Mike in SB · I think Wise Dan will be Horse of the Year and Fort Larned the runner up. But look at how racing has changed, from 1936 to 2008 the Horse of the Year was either a classic distance older male or 3 year old colt 69 times, with 6 fillies and 2 two year old winners. Now in the last three years we have had 3 fillies and this year the winner will probably a turf miler. The older handicap males and 3 year old males are in the glamour divisions of racings. Racing needs stars in these divisions, but with older males racing so few times and the 3 year olds not able too finish the year, it is opening the Horse of the Year award to horses that only 10 years ago would have little chance to win. · 223 days ago ·

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barryreedmitchell · NOT SO FAST! You can never discount the Breeders Cup Classic winner. He always is in the FINAL TWO. While Wise Dan has been extremely impressive, he has dodge all the Grade 1 top DIRT races this year, that has always been a requirement for HOTY awards . Huge mistake, even when given the opportunity to race in the Breeders Cup classic to settle the matter. This decision alone, puts Wise Dan behind several others ROYAL DELTA - The Breeders Cup Laddies Classic winner, defeated a far more stellar field and pack with significant championship implication then this year Turf miler. She has won at the classic distance and is the DOUBLE Breeders Cup winner, previously voted champion honors. Royal Delta resume is far more worthy of the Horse of the Year award then Wise Dan. Her record was from FEB-NOV. Ill Have Another could even be consider second in the voting over Wise Dan, because of his powerful wins in the Kentucky Derby and Preakness Stakes. We were all assured of the Triple Crown if he had stayed healthy. FORT LARNED gets the nod in this category. Twice defeated stellar fields in the BIGGEST day of racing on BOTH coast, and holds the Breeders Cup Classic victory with a TOP 117 speed ratings at 1 1/4 classic distance. Fort Larned also holds four races above 110 speed rating, 117,113,111,110, also winning at 109,106 rather easily which would be included. So Fort Larned could have eclipse 110 in six top competition races. He would not be denied on Breeders Cup Classic day, and I don't see him being denied at HOTY ceremonies. His record was from FEB-NOV Final Commentary: A quick look at the past HOTY voting would say, a miler on DIRT or TURF could never win the voting because of the level of competition, and there have been some greats to perform in times past. This hold true this year as well. Wise Dan was manificient. But, we must evaluate the playing field, just as we do in NCAA Football or Basketball Division I versus Division II competition. The horses in which Wide Dan defeated this year are NOT consider to be significant leaders towards divisional honors. Wise Dan raced record was from APR-NOV FORT LARNED gets the nod because he defeated the best TWICE and on BOTH coasts, with high racing numbers ALL YEAR long. · 223 days ago ·

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boxersdaddy · Looks like it is about time that an american turf horse won the HOTY award. · 223 days ago ·

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CarolynKolseth · Royal Delta · 223 days ago ·

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AndyScoggin · It looks this year the Horse of the Year goes back to the boys. Wise Dan was just way too good this year. I don't think this HOY vote will even be close. · 223 days ago ·

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Capper · I could see an argument for Little Mike or even Fort Larned, but that loss in the Personal Ensign ruined Royal Delta's chances. · 223 days ago ·

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AmenChampion · Wise Dan. · 223 days ago ·

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Mary Z. · Capper, true. Are you reading this, Mike Smith? · 223 days ago ·

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illhaveanothertriplecrown · Has to be either Wise Dan or I'll Have Another. Royal Delta and Point of Entry cannot. · 223 days ago ·

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jane.raymond.7 · You cant make a Boy Vs. Girl P/CP for HOY this yr - doesnt work,esp when the girl didnt run against any boys, her versatility is nothing compared to the boy's (Dan); it's just silly to do it this way this yr. Please do another one between MMM & Dan, or GoD or Dan, or maybe PoE. This one is just totally irrelevant in itself. · 223 days ago ·

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cocoa2 · I'l Have Another is out of the picture. It is Wise Dan, Ron The Greek, Royal Delta or Point Of Entry. POE is a turf horse so cancel him out. You can scratch RD too. Wise Dan or Ron The Greek? Ron The Greek closed more than 10 lengths but finished 4th. His major victories come from the west coast. Wise Dan is our horse. · 223 days ago ·

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fonnerparkfilly · Wise Dan, all the way. I would be very surprised if they handed the honors to another female horse for the 4th year in a row. Like I said, WISE DAN will nail this one, and he deserves it. · 223 days ago ·

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AllenJoyner · I think Royal Delta is a wonderful mare, the the numbers say it's Dan all the way. And he'll win it, I guaranty it. · 223 days ago ·

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AllenJoyner · As I said, Wise DAn. Six different tracks, three different surfaces, the top THREE Beyers for grass, tied for the best Beyer on dirt/synthetic, and misses the World Record by.37 seconds for the mile while breaking isses top Be · 223 days ago ·

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AllenJoyner · Six different tracks, wins on all three surfaces, sets the track record and misses the world record by only .37 seconds at the BC Mile, and has the top 3 Beyer figures on grass, and the best Beyer on dirt/synthetic. WISE DAN for sure. · 223 days ago ·

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northport · royal delta is not nearly as versatile or consistent as wise dan. no contest · 223 days ago ·

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Mary Z. · It was a nice 5 days. Thanks, awfully, for inviting the negative comments about my favorite filly, Matt. · 223 days ago ·

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BrianZipse · I know that was tongue-in-cheek, Mary, but remember, Matt did this out of pure respect for the quality of Royal Delta. · 223 days ago ·

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AmbitiousD · Mary, I never meant to invite negative comments about her. She is one of my favorites as well, and seeing her up close at Santa Anita last weekend was one of the best experiences I've had at any racetrack. She is a wonderful horse. · 223 days ago ·

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Mary Z. · No, it was not tongue-in-cheek, and negative comments are there lurking and waiting to be unleashed by those who feel that anything has "overstepped its bounds". Also, there are those who lost money chasing winning streaks. Royal Delta is not and never has been a streak setter and then there's that whole subject of the value of streaks. · 223 days ago ·

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Mary Z. · Wasn't AF your BCLC pick, AD? · 223 days ago ·

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Mary Z. · Forget it, AD. She wasn't just your pick. I'm off of this thread. · 223 days ago ·

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rorschach1992 · As much as I love Royal Delta, I just don't think she has the resume to be HOY this year. Had she won the Personal Ensign, I think she'd definitely be in the running, and we could debate her winning it until the awards are announced, but she unfortunately came up short there. Brilliant as her Beldame/Distaff double were, this just isn't her year to be HOY. She is certainly a lock for Champion Older Female though. Maybe next year will be her year for HOY. · 223 days ago ·

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Nubaruba · Dan and Delta need to get together in the breeding shed after they retire. · 222 days ago ·

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Mary Z. · Had to come back for: He's a gelding. · 222 days ago ·

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LAZMANNICK · I've heard that some geldings can do extraordinary things, some have magical powers, and of course there is always the Immacuate Conception. · 222 days ago ·

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travel_vic · Look at some of the greatest and our respect for them Kelso, Forego, John Henry, Exterminator.....some of the best all time. They got good and just stayed that way! · 222 days ago ·

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LAZMANNICK · TV it was in response to a poster saying that Wise Dan and Royal Delta should meet in the breeding shed. · 222 days ago ·

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MarcelloMarocco · "not even the great Royal Delta could overcome the challenge of travelling, but neither could Excelebration a few days ago." · 222 days ago ·

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MarcelloMarocco · Granted, not even the great Royal Delta could overcome the challenge of travelling, but neither could Excelebration a few days ago. UM...Royal Delta had Ample time to prep for the World Cup. Excelebration shipped two weeks after winning the QEII on very soft ground over a top notch GR1 field. Excuse him if he ran a touch under his best..... · 222 days ago ·

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Mary Z. · Oh, hey Matt, just stoppin by again to say that I didn't get my post BCLC congrats/ sort of apology from darlin QP MM here like I did last year, and I missed that, of course I was away seeing her Royal Delta in person, but he's here now to lap up your blog like I would chocolate pudding, so thanks again, Matt. Now, would you mind chatting about that crap ride Royal Delta got in the DWC which doesn't count towards any North American awards, and if you have a few mins, couldya do an Inglorious blog for MM here, cuz he's never going to get over the Alabama. · 222 days ago ·

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Mary Z. · Here's an idea: take a female horse that's not up for an award, but take the stand that she is, and see how many indignities she can endure, including gelding dates and grudge holders. · 222 days ago ·

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UnionRagsRules · Wise Dan deserves it, but Royal Delta is great too. · 222 days ago ·

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LAZMANNICK · As mediocre as some think N/A horse racing is, and for those who constantly hype European superiority, at least we won’t be having a horse with a single victory this year, and another who was defeated by a group of non-Group One winners as finalists for HOY. Some good horses in Europe, but I question the lack of depth. And of course whenever we defeat a European horse it’s because of extenuating circumstances, never because we happened to have the better horse. As for who is best, I think that we can say that the Euros might still have an edge on the turf, but when it comes to dirt and even synthetics, where are they. When those Euro horses start defeating N/A horses on those surfaces then maybe we can say that they’re better overall, until then all we’re hearing is talk and misguided conjecture. · 221 days ago ·

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footlick · Synthetic=Dubai. They show up there, Laz. And they do far better than we do. And, again, when our horses ship there and win, let me know. But if they have to constantly ship here and run only on our terms, there will always be extenuating circumstances. Sorry. · 221 days ago ·

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footlick · And by shipping there and winning, I mean shipping to Europe. We already ship to Dubai and rarely win anymore now that the WC is on Tapeta. I think Wise Dan is a very talented horse, but he gets to run under his conditions. Obviously you feel that is fair and right. Again, so be it. · 221 days ago ·

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LAZMANNICK · Footlick, Nathaniel had a single win this year and Camelot was defeated in arguably the most important race in his career when running in a field where he was the sole Group One winner. They are both up for Cartier Awards for HOY along with Frankel, Excelebration and Cirrus des Aigles. As for Dubai and N/A’s success on non-turf racing, since the Dubai World Cup came into existence the US trained horses have won 8 of the 17 World Cups and another winner was bred in the US but campaigned in the UAE (and they did this in spite of having to ship half way around the world). Conversely, in the Sheema Classic on turf I believe that N/A horses have been shut out. My conclusion is that between the US and Europe, the US have superior dirt and synthetic horses and the Euros have superior turf horses. As for Wise Dan and Animal Kingdom and Little Mike, etc., they did what they had to do to win (and almost win) and as for Wise Dan, he has shown the ability to run on different turf surfaces as evidenced by his commanding Four Stars Dave win at Saratoga on yielding turf in a slow time of 1.37 1/5. I’m not trying to say that Wise Dan is the best. All I’m saying is that he is very good right now and has basically done all he’s been asked to do and it will take a very good horse to beat him. · 221 days ago ·

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footlick · Laz- First off,I wasn't going to mention Camelot, but did he do any less that IHA? And isn't IHA up for our eclipse? Nathaniel has proved his class this year considering who he has finished behind. But, you can downplay his class if you want. As far as the DWC, yes we did dominate on dirt,but Europe always sent horses to run to support it, just like they do to support the BC and to support racing in Australia, Japan and Hong Kong. But, how many DWC have we won since it became a synthetic surface race? It is all well and good to have national or regional pride,but don't downplay what European horses go through and try to overcome because their trainers and wonders come to support OUR racing event. We did dominate the DWC when it was on dirt. It would have been embarrassing not to sine we are the only major racing country that runs predominately on that surface. So of course we were eager to ship there. And Europeans ship their horses there to support that event too,and ran their horses on dirt,as they have in our Classic. They also ship to Japan, Hong Kong and Australia. I can't be impressed by the US shipping to run in a race they most certainly will dominate. But, I am impressed with Wesley Ward shipping to England every year,as are the British. I was also impressed with Todd Pletcher shipping horses there last year. And England was thrilled to have them. You and · 221 days ago ·

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footlick · Laz- First off,I wasn't going to mention Camelot, but did he do any less that IHA? And isn't IHA up for our eclipse? Nathaniel has proved his class this year considering who he has finished behind. But, you can downplay his class if you want. As far as the DWC, yes we did dominate on dirt,but Europe always sent horses to run to support it, just like they do to support the BC and to support racing in Australia, Japan and Hong Kong. But, how many DWC have we won since it became a synthetic surface race? It is all well and good to have national or regional pride,but don't downplay what European horses go through and try to overcome because their trainers and wonders come to support OUR racing event. We did dominate the DWC when it was on dirt. It would have been embarrassing not to sine we are the only major racing country that runs predominately on that surface. So of course we were eager to ship there. And Europeans ship their horses there to support that event too,and ran their horses on dirt,as they have in our Classic. They also ship to Japan, Hong Kong and Australia. I can't be impressed by the US shipping to run in a race they most certainly will dominate. But, I am impressed with Wesley Ward shipping to England every year,as are the British. I was also impressed with Todd Pletcher shipping horses there last year. And England was thrilled to have them. You · 221 days ago ·

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footlick · Sorry about the double. I'm on my iPad. I just don't want to keep going on. You obviously don't think much about them shipping here and home field advantage, and that is your right. Weary ever going to agree on this. I have never downplayed Wise Dan and have praised him many times. You can downplay as many Euros as you want. Have a good day. · 221 days ago ·

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thatbigbay · It's about time for a turf horse to take home the big prize. If IHA gets the award, HOTY is officially meaningly. He may have been a good horse, but what about the OF THE YEAR yart? He was only around for a couple months. · 200 days ago ·

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illhaveanothertriplecrown · Yeah but he won bigger races. None of Wise Dan's races compare to the Derby or Preakness. He dodged the BC classic. · 200 days ago ·

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2012 Breeders' Cup Mile: European Contenders

A look at the 10 top European hopefuls for the Breeders' Cup Mile.Read More

Show All 7 Comments
zatt · Moonlight Cloud has received a lot of buzz of late, but I think you got the top European right, Jasen ... Imagine the record Excelebration would have if not for Frankel. · 268 days ago ·

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AndyScoggin · Thanks for the look at the Euros. I need a lot help in that area. · 268 days ago ·

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footlick · On paper it does look like Excelebration will outclass her, but Freddie was awfully excited to announce she will be running here...... · 268 days ago ·

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jasen.mangrum · Curious to see Power in here. His Irish 2000 Guineas was pretty impressive, but Coolmore may feel they have the race cornered with Excelebration. · 267 days ago ·

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ILuvTurfRacing · At her best you certainly can't discount Moonlight Cloud's chances in the BC Mile. But I personally think she might be a bit better in those 6 to 6-1/2f sprints. Her two wins in the G1 Prix Maurice De Gheest over 6-1/2f are arguably two of the best performances of her career. She's a class filly for sure, but I think she'll find trying to beat Excelebration or Wise Dan at 8f a tough row to hoe. · 267 days ago ·

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MarcelloMarocco · NOBODY will beat Excelebration. The field he beat in France was MUCH more loaded then who ever shows up for the BC Mile. Is the Mile gonna have what 7-8-9 GR1 winners in it?. Excelebration's form is outstanding, he has run every lick vs Frankel, and vs a loaded field in the Jacque de la Marois. Wise Dan needs everything he has in his tank to get to Excelebration in the lane. JMO. Don't get me wrong Wise dan to me is the best North American miler since Soaring free, or even before him in Da hoss. But wise Dan is no Da Hoss just yet, and Soraing free has the 7furlongs Turf record In America. Gonna be a GREAT race, and with Moonlight cloud shipping in also heck ya!!. · 257 days ago ·

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icyhotboo · I wouldn't sell Wise Dan short, this is a fully mature 5 yo who always fires. If he gets beat they'll have to work for it and Excelebration and Wise Dan seem to be pretty close. Bad timing for Excelebration to have to butt heads with Frankel. · 256 days ago ·

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Wise Dan Strong 6-5 Woodbine Mile Favorite

Wise Dan headlines a solid field of nine for Sunday’s Grade 1, $1 million Woodbine Mile.Read More

Show All 66 Comments
stevestylesclark · I love Wise Dan so much! He seems so patient and confident when he runs. No matter the surface, the distance, the track, he to me is the best thoroughbred here in the states. He might not always win, but he is always in the race! I would love to see him ship over to Dubai and make the us states proud with a great effort and possible win! · 279 days ago ·

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ILuvTurfRacing · Citscape finishes 1-1/4 lengths behind Excelebration in the G1 Prix Jacques Le Marois with the likes of Immortal Verse, Elusive Kate, Golden Lilac, and Moonlight Cloud behind him, and he runs the likes of Mutahadee, Ambitious Dragon, Xtension, California Memory, and Musir completely off of their feet to win the G1 Dubai Duty Free by a street and they make Wise Dan the favorite for the G1 Woodbine Mile? LOL, Please. · 279 days ago ·

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travel_vic · Big seminar ON track there at Woodbine Satruday. Wife and I are going on a backstrech tour in the AM and maybe we will se this favorite up close. · 279 days ago ·

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Mary Z. · Looking forward to your report, tv, sincerely. · 279 days ago ·

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AmbitiousD · ILuvTurf, I think you are on to something... I'll take 5-2 on Cityscape in this race any day. He ships well too, and could give Wise Dan a good run if he brings his best stuff · 279 days ago ·

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ILuvTurfRacing · @AmbitioudD, I was being sarcastic when I made that comment. Meaning that I couldn't believe that Cityscape wasn't the favorite instead of Wise Dan for the Woodbine Mile? He's beaten MUCH tougher competition that Wise Dan has, and I also think he'll win the race. · 279 days ago ·

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AmbitiousD · I knew the sarcasm :) But I'll still take Cityscape at 5-2 if it can last. My guess is he'll be more like 9-5 come post time. · 279 days ago ·

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jinlie01 · Wise Dan and Cityscape look solid but like the upset chance of Riding the River at 10-1 morning odds. Seems that he is coming into form this year as 5 yr old gelding. · 278 days ago ·

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illhaveanothertriplecrown · Should be a cake walk · 278 days ago ·

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ILuvTurfRacing · If Cityscape is even anywhere close to his best he'll be too good for anything in the Woodbine Mile. Because frankly, he's been racing and beating much tougher in Europe, and what he beat in Dubai is heads and shoulders above anything in this field, IMO. · 278 days ago ·

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travel_vic · Track may be yiedling on Sunday if the rain keeps up: off the turf today in a down pour. · 278 days ago ·

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yukichan · I am actually landing on Wise Dan, and you know me and my love for the Euros on turf. Dan is, IMO our best turf miler, and he will love a yielding turf if rains continue. His best RPR is a tick higher than Cityscape. Dan's the man for me. · 278 days ago ·

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Mary Z. · 7,3,1,5 · 276 days ago ·

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yukichan · Wise Dan IS the real deal!! · 276 days ago ·

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Mary Z. · Big win by Wise Dan. · 276 days ago ·

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travel_vic · best bet of the day Hunter's Bay runs second at long odds...will pay more than the winner · 276 days ago ·

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AmbitiousD · Wise Dan is a monster. Great trip from Johnny V as well. This pair will be very tough to beat in November · 276 days ago ·

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LAZMANNICK · ILUVTURFRACING Great analysis. Of course now I’m waiting for you to say that Cityscape wasn’t anywhere close to his best. The winner toyed with your favorite, who was under the whip repeatedly. I hope that they run Wise Dan in the BC Mile and I hope that the best milers in Europe run in the race also because I seriously think that Wise Dan would kick a lot of butt. · 276 days ago ·

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stevestylesclark · I believe I started the thread above, but Wise Dan never disappoints. As soon as 23.3 hit the tv I said, later to the rest of the field. I think Cityscape is a good horse, but Wise Dan is a beast. I hope they bring Excelebration over to the Breeders Cup, because he might be the only one who can even contend with WD at a mile on Turf right now! (excluding Frankel of course) · 276 days ago ·

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ILuvTurfRacing · @Lazmannick, I surely won't say Cityscape wasn't near his best. I'll simply I was wrong and Wise Dan was much the best today. · 276 days ago ·

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icyhotboo · ILuvTurfRacing, were going to be wrong more than were right. At least you made a prediction with an analysis before the race, that can never be wrong. Have a nice day · 276 days ago ·

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ILuvTurfRacing · @stevestylesclark, The last I had heard the BC Mile in November was Aidan O'Brien's plan for Excelebration. To my knowledge, that plan hasn't changed yet? · 276 days ago ·

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ILuvTurfRacing · @icyhotboo, thanks for the kind words, and you're absolutely correct. We're always be wrong more than right. If I had handicapping races figured out an exact science then I'd be a millionaire!! LOL. · 276 days ago ·

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footlick · Laz- you have no way of knowing if the horse was in his best form or not. To say that to ILuvTurfRacing was a little disingenuous. Do you know if Cityscape was at his best? Please let me know. Otherwise, there is no need to chastise ILuvTurfRacing. · 276 days ago ·

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footlick · I red that Freddie Head is thinking about bringing Moonlight Cloud to the BC · 276 days ago ·

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footlick · read · 276 days ago ·

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footlick · Cityscapes jock said he was not travelling like he did in Dubai or France. He never felt like he was travelling well. Just reporting the other view, in case people want to hear. · 276 days ago ·

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icyhotboo · footlick, I couldn't get a read on Cityscape because of his inconsistancies, so I didn't bet the race, just watched. So what you say doesn't surprise me at all.It showed on the form he was that kind of horse. · 276 days ago ·

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travel_vic · At the MIle seminar Saturday, all htreee DRF commentators pointed out how rare Wise Dan is: he runs well on dirt, synthetics and turf · 275 days ago ·

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AnnaK · The other Wiseman's Ferry son, Riding The River is another really good horse. We knew he wouldn't beat WD, but for a horse who cost a few thou and came up through the claiming ranks, he's done so well. Tries every time, keeps surprising how good he is. A lovely horse. · 275 days ago ·

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LAZMANNICK · Of course, of course, of course, of course. I wonder if Wise Dan was at his best too. · 275 days ago ·

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footlick · Wise Dan equaled his best RPR number for turf in the Woodbine Mile. Racing Post rates him 1lb better on dirt and synthetic. Cityscape did not run to his best RPR number. But his best number is not as high as Wise Dan's. Wise Dan is a very good consistent horse. I have no problem with him. But there is no need to act like Cityscape is the best Europe can send for the BC. I didn't like the race for any Euros actually and thought that Wise Dan would win with no problem. But, do I think Cityscape ran his best race? No. Now, lets see Wise Dan run against Cityscape in Europe for the rubber match. Oh, I forgot. That isn't allowed. · 275 days ago ·

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footlick · The horse i am interested in is Moonlight Cloud. Let's see if Freddie was serious when he said she was coming for the BC Mile. · 275 days ago ·

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LAZMANNICK · Sorry Footlick, but according to Beyer, this wasn’t Wise Dan’s best turf race either. As for Cityscape, my post wasn’t meant to knock him. I think that he’s had stellar career and he’s also earned a lot of money. My knock was aimed at the condesceneding post well above that stated the merits of some of the horses that Cityscape had beaten followed by the comment: <>. I think that when it came down to it, some people got it right. The ridiculed odds-maker for sure as well as the people that bet their money on Wise Dan. I’m not in any way trying to show disrespect to respectful poster’s opinions, but at some point the Euro horse lovers have to admit that there is occasionally a good horse running over here. · 275 days ago ·

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LAZMANNICK · Part of what I wanted to explain was omitted in my last post…Sorry Footlick, but according to Beyer, this wasn’t Wise Dan’s best turf race either. As for Cityscape, my post wasn’t meant to knock him. I think that he’s had stellar career and he’s also earned a lot of money. My knock was aimed at the condescending post well above that stated the merits of some of the horses that Cityscape had beaten followed by the comment: “they make Wise Dan the favorite for the G1 Woodbine Mile? LOL, Please”. I think that when it came down to it, some people got it right. The ridiculed odds-maker for sure as well as the people that bet their money on Wise Dan. I’m not in any way trying to show disrespect to respectful poster’s opinions, but at some point the Euro horse lovers have to admit that there is occasionally a good horse running over here. · 275 days ago ·

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footlick · Laz- first, I pay no attention to Beyer and he could have given Wise Dan a 120. if does;t matter to me whether he gave him a 105 instead of the 107 he gave him at Saratoga. A two point variation could be for such a huge variety of things that have nothing to do with the horses performance, that I'm perplexed as to why you even used Beyer. Racing Post gave it a 127, the same rating that they gave his race t Saratoga. They also contend that he is marginally better on dirt and all-weather. Wise Dan is respected. As far as comparing the two horses competition that each has faced in their career, can you say that ILuvTurfRacing was wrong? As far as the morning line favorite, I didn't expect Cityscape to be it. I think it was a "looked better than it was" finishing second as Excellebration won as he pleased and was not being pushed out by his jockey. And since I don't feel Cityscape has been in form since Dubai, and I don't consider him in the same league as Excellebration, I would not have made him the morning line favorite. If you want to take offense at how something was stated, that is your prerogative. I just have usually viewed you as someone who is fair and balanced. But, we all have our moments, I guess. As far as Wise Dan, he is rated at 127 on turf and 128 on dirt and all-weather. He is respected by Euro horse lovers and they know he is a talented horse. He has the same RPR rating on turf as Exellebration. But it is things like this, the BC showdown where an equally rated Euro horse is going to ship from Ireland, be in quarantine, get limited time on the course, have to deal with a bull ring by Euro standards and a shorter stretch than they are used to plus different pace scenarios and climate, is gong to be judged by that one performance. And the Euros get no chance at running against American horses in Europe. In many ways, and with your response to ILuvTurfRacing, I wish the BC would be for NA horses only. Let the top Euros go run in Australia and the Far East. That anyone thinks it is fair to a European horse to ship here and try to adapt to so many different things............. I just have to stop, or all my pent up frustration will start to pour out and I won't stop. Just before anyone gloats, just think of what a Euro horse has to go through to compete here, and they do. Then think of what our horses would have to go through to compete there, and they don't. There is no sucj thing as a fair race between a Euro-based horse and an American based horse that takes place in the US. · 275 days ago ·

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footlick · correction- it was a 109 Beyer at Saratoga and a 107 Beyer for Woodbine. Still a 2 pt difference, but i want to be accurate. · 275 days ago ·

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buckpasser · Footy. I understand your point about making the BC just a NA race. Obviously, it was designed to be an international day of racing, but that has fallen by the wayside. Years ago many American horses such as TC winner Omaha went to England and won along with steeplechasers like Battleship and others. carry Back ran in the Arc and Buckpasser' was scheduled to run in it but was unable to negotiate the turf in the Bowling Green with French shoes. For many years many top barns in the US maintained European stables as well like the Phipps, Galbreath, Mellon, Bunker Hunt etc. the only ones that are trying to keep this tradition alive seem to be the Ramseys for American Breeders. I think that the reason many horses stay put here in the states have to do with casino enhanced purses at many tracks and that our breeders don't seem to put as much value in European races as breeders years ago did. For the Europeans to come here it is worth the effort for a large payday. Look at Dubai, they pay the expenses for the horses etc and they owners have a shot at a big purse. · 275 days ago ·

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travel_vic · Beyers: a reflection of final time and NOT A THING about how it was attained. I see horses with lower Beyers beat those with higher Beyers EACH DAY. The animals who faced faster paces of races will beat the slower paces of races each and everu time · 275 days ago ·

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footlick · thx, buckpasser. I did remember that about Buckpasser. Baeza said he was slipping all over the course. · 275 days ago ·

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LAZMANNICK · Gee Travel Vic. More knowledge to share withgus. You never cease to amaze me. · 275 days ago ·

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LAZMANNICK · My personal thoughts are that in most cases respect should be paid the winners of races and except for those times when an excuse should obviously be warranted, excuses should be left in the background. However, in recent years there seems to be a feeling by some that N/A horses aren’t much anymore, certainly not in the same league as Euro horses. True, European horses have come over here and won a lot of prestigious races, especially in the past 10-15 years. However, there seems to be a little too much “they’re much the best” when they win and “something wasn’t right” on those rare occasions when they lose. Maybe the excuses are legitimate, and then again maybe they’re not. True, our so called best horses don’t travel to Europe to run in their prestigious races, but I have a feeling that one of the reasons they don’t is that many of our best are not at their best on grass. If there were high profile races on dirt in Europe then I’m sure that more N/A horses would travel there and compete and I’m sure they would win their share of those races as well as lose their fair share. A case in point is the early days of the Dubai World Cup before the synthetic surface was installed. USA raced horses dominated winning 9 of the first 14 world Cups with Irish horses a distant second with three wins. In the same period, the Dubai Duty Free on turf has never been won by a USA based horse. But one thing stands out in the Dubai World Cup, I don’t think that an Arc winner has ever won it and I doubt since its inception that one has even competed in it. · 275 days ago ·

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footlick · Laz- the Dubai World Cup when it was dirt? Really? How many of the Euros were dirt horses? They were turf horses. They could have used the same excuse as you just gave as to why American horses don't ship. Running surface. And yet, not only did they support it, 5 non-American horses won, and how many times had they raced on dirt before? American horses balk at shipping across country to race because it is too hard, and yet shipping across the ocean, sitting in quarantine, maybe getting to gallop the course twice, running in a track configuration they have never raced on before and dealing with a totally different racing style may be legitimate excuses but may not be also. It is absurd that people forget how far they travel and what they have to go through when they get here. And yet, it is the Europeans who support worldwide racing, shipping to Hong Kong and Japan and Dubai and Australia regularly. Our support of the Dubai races is going to dwindle, and our top turf horses don't seem to want to ship to take on International competition. You think whatever you want. That is your right. As far as Arc winners are concerned, as far as I know they have never won a Japan Cup also. Why would an Arc winner run in the Dubai WC to begin with? I understand the BC or the Japan Cup as they are still in training. But I wouldn;t bring my Arc winner out early to train for a race at the end of March on dirt or synthetic. But that is just me, I guess. · 275 days ago ·

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buckpasser · I wonder if the real reason do many American horses don't go abroad as before has to do with the usage of so many race days in the US which are not allowed abroad · 275 days ago ·

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buckpasser · Footy. I could well see Moonlight Cloud racing here in the BC. He is owned By George Strawbridge an American who resigned from the Horse Assoc. here when it would not vote to ban race day Meds. · 275 days ago ·

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buckpasser · That should read the usage of so many race day Meds in the US. · 275 days ago ·

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footlick · buckpasser- the last I read Freddy Head was very keen on running her in the BC Mile. · 275 days ago ·

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buckpasser · I could see MC running here after all Freddy brought Goldikova here · 275 days ago ·

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footlick · You could be right, buckpasser, as in the old days raceday meds weren't allowed here either. If a horse cannot run one race without meds, then should that horse really be running? If they won;t ship across country, are they really going to ship to Europe to put their horses in a strange country, go through quarantine, and run on a course that they have never encountered before? Euros are expected to do it though. Just like the prevalent opinion here that dirt racing is the only racing that counts. Because turf horses in this country are second class citizens, and synthetic horses are third class. I don't want to get started again. · 275 days ago ·

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buckpasser · Footy. Not to get you upset, but I think that american breeders are not the internationalists that they once were. So many top European horses were brought here in the past to improve the breed that I think we still arrogantly think our racing is the best. In the past given the top studs and mares that we brought that was probably true reflected in the bidding wars at our yearling sales. Now that is not true. There just are not breeders on the level of August Belmont, the Phipps, Warren Wright, etc. who raided Europe to bring the best here. I would think that given the buying and breed enhancement that the Japanese are doing, they are the real heirs of the great breeders. I was incredibly impressed with a program on the Japanese training facilities. Ours are something out of the stone age. · 275 days ago ·

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yukichan · The great Singspiel won the Japan Cup and went on next year to win the Dubai World Cup... · 275 days ago ·

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footlick · not getting me upset. And you are right, they just are not breeding for racing beyond the American microcosm. And you are right about the Japanese breeders. They have studied and learned and invested and it is now paying off. They are breeding high quality horses with stamina. And the sons of Sunday Silence are rocking the breeding shed there. · 275 days ago ·

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yukichan · Sorry, missed the point of thread, or partial thread re: x J Cup, Arc and DWC. Singspiel still awesome and unique in his transcontinental accomplishments! Montjeu was one who won the Arc and finished 4th in the Japan Cup. I will add that the Japan Cup has some jawdropping bonuses for those who win or place in various races around the world to entice the best horses to come to Japan and compete. BC Turf, Arc, Arlington Mil winners can pick up an additional 1.2 mil if they win, $508,000 for a place... · 275 days ago ·

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footlick · Yes yukichan- Singspiel was top class and he did win the Japan Cup ad the DWC. But, starting your high class thoroughbred's season with his first race at the end of March is early for Euros. At least imo. · 275 days ago ·

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LAZMANNICK · Footlick, “The Dubai World Cup. Really. How many of the Euro’s were dirt horses? They are turf horses”…..That sounds like a point I was trying to make. Time of the year aside, I wouldn’t expect them to contest the Dubai World Cup on dirt against high quality dirt horses, just like I didn’t expect American horses to compete in the Dubai Duty Free against some of the world’s best turf horses. I’m not trying to denigrate the Euros and I for one always appreciate when they do come over. I am well aware of how many have run in the BCC over the years and yet had virtually no experience on dirt and it showed. It’s not an easy go to ship over here, but neither is the trip from the States to Dubai……The real point I’m trying to make is that personally I have had enough of the feeling that America’s horses are inferior because of their less than exemplary performances against the better European horses on turf when by far the greatest majority of our best horses don’t race on turf. They race on dirt. If you take “America’s top ten thoroughbreds” from the Bloodhorse list, only three of them ever raced on turf; Secretariat (twice, both wins), Dr. Fager (once, win) and Kelso (eight times with 4 wins and three seconds). That’s it. The top ten raced 307 times on dirt as opposed to 11 times on turf. The simple fact is, the best turf horses will never run against the best dirt horses and have an equal chance on dirt, and visa-versa if the races were contested on turf. But it seems that because our best race on dirt, their dirt performances (and lately on synthetics also), apparently means squat when it comes to determining their level of quality. · 275 days ago ·

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buckpasser · Laz. I would add Round Table to your discussion. He excelled at Turf and was considered one of the greatest of all time. But he was also an exemplary performer on dirt as well. He sired top dirt and grass performers and had a world wide influence on the breed. As a small aside his dam Knights Daughter was bred by King George VI. · 275 days ago ·

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footlick · Laz- you, if I remember correctly, stated that one of the reasons we do not send our horses to Europe is that our best horses are running on dirt. Europeans don't send their best horses here usually. They sent better horses here when the DC International was running than they do now. Their best horses are pointed to the Arc or now Champions Day in Britain and then go to Japan or Hong Kong or both. The fact that Secretariat, Dr Fager and Kelso could run on both surfaces, as well as the Euro WC winners when it was still run on dirt should tell you that there are horses that can do it. Damascus ran a bang up race in the DC International in his only turf race. Buckpasser's shoes cost him at least 10 lengths, according to Baeza if I remember correctly also, costing him the race. · 275 days ago ·

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footlick · Laz- you, if I remember correctly, stated that one of the reasons we do not send our horses to Europe is that our best horses are running on dirt. Europeans don't send their best horses here usually. They sent better horses here when the DC International was running than they do now. Their best horses are pointed to the Arc or now Champions Day in Britain and then go to Japan or Hong Kong or both. The fact that Secretariat, Dr Fager and Kelso could run on both surfaces, as well as the Euro WC winners when it was still run on dirt should tell you that there are horses that can do it. Damascus ran a bang up race in the DC International in his only turf race. Buckpasser's shoes cost him at least 10 lengths, according to Baeza if I remember correctly also, costing him the race. tht · 275 days ago ·

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footlick · you know what Laz, since i hit the wrong key on my computer, instead of finishing my post I'm just going to tell you to believe whatever you want. I'm done. They make the effort and we don't reciprocate. And their effort obviously is not appreciated and taken for granted. · 275 days ago ·

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footlick · Buckpasser-Damascus ran a bang up race in the DC International. May Whittingham trainees would occasionally make a different surface start. · 275 days ago ·

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LAZMANNICK · Buckpasser your comments about Round Table were expected, but I was only listing Bloodhorse’s Top 10. To me, Round Table’s exclusion from the Bloodhorse top ten is ridiculous and perhaps makes a point about how North Americans feel about turf racing as opposed to dirt. I firmly believe that if his career had been defined by his turf record alone he would have been a top ten for sure. Round Table won HOY in 1958 when he made 20 total starts with 14 on dirt and 6 on Turf. He was voted top Turf Horse in 57-58-59, and top Handicap Horse in 58-59. And I believe that when he retired he was N/A’s all-time money winning leader. He was a great dirt horse, but had the misfortune of being part of perhaps N/A’s best and deepest overall three year old crop of 1957. His turf record should be envied anywhere throughout the world. He made 16 total turf starts and won 14 and lost two, one by a half length to Clem when carrying 130 lbs. to Clem’s 113. His other loss was in the Washington Birthday when he cut himself and finished 16th and last by 30 lengths. He was laid up for four months before returning to win the Citation Handicap on dirt in 1.33 2/5 while again carrying 130 lbs. and giving the runner up 26 lbs. He was a great weight carrier, often carrying 130 lbs. or more and always giving away great chunks of weight. He set or tied several track records and 16 times had the best three year time at various distances at various tracks. He won on both soft as well as firm going on turf. I can’t say for sure, but I believe that his 1.58 3/5ths on dirt as a three year old in the ’57 HGC at 10F might have been the best at that distance until The Bid broke it in the Strub Stakes. I firmly believe that he was a world class turf horse in any era and is my all-time favorite N/A turf horse ahead of Manila, Lure, Fort Marcy and Hawaii/ Assagai tied. · 275 days ago ·

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LAZMANNICK · Footlick, no argument from me about making the effort. I firmly believe that the main reason N/A’s never made the effort was because of a total lack of confidence on turf. Over and out. · 275 days ago ·

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forego139 · Just imagine Wise Dan for the Mile and Point Of Entry for the Turf, Bring on the Euro's · 275 days ago ·

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travel_vic · The European contingent is usually stronger, BUT theweather there and that VERY SHORT STRETCH for them to over come · 274 days ago ·

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Buckpasser · Laz. Agree with you about Round Table being overlooked by not being in the top ten · 274 days ago ·

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travel_vic · Round table toted big weight and ran on several surfaces. · 274 days ago ·

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Wise Dan Easily Captures Woodbine Mile

Overwhelming 1-2 favorite Wise Dan coasted to an easy victory in Sunday's Grade 1, $1 million Woodbine Mile. Read More

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angelT · Common sense tells us, a common interest and a similar lifestyle are vital ingredients in the chemistry of a successful relationship.For the horse lover,the horse is more than friends, it is a lifestyle.go to WWW.HORSELOVRSDATING.ORG find your love here · 276 days ago ·

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icyhotboo · angelT, angelT ,angelT , these are to block all ur posts. keep em coming I got all day n all night. · 276 days ago ·

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icyhotboo · angelT, angelT ,angelT , these are to block all ur posts. keep em coming I got all day n all night. · 276 days ago ·

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2012 Breeders' Cup Mile - American Contingent

A look at the top 10 American contenders to carry the torch Court Vision captured from Goldikova last year.Read More

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zatt · Love the move to turf for Dominus, big respect for Little Mike, and I still have major faith in Mr. Commons, but ... I have little doubt that Wise Dan is America's top hope in the Mile. · 279 days ago ·

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AndyScoggin · Wise Dan! · 279 days ago ·

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AmbitiousD · Jason, any chance of Silver Max or Summer Front being considered for the BC Mile? · 279 days ago ·

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Mary Z. · Or the very good turf miler females? They don't get their own race. Which ones could join the boys? · 278 days ago ·

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jasen.mangrum · AmbitiousD, I'm not sure about Summer Front, but I know Silver Max is being pointed to the BC. I know it was 1 1/4, but he's not in the top 10 after that performance against straight 3 year old. Plus, if Obviously & Little Mike both show up for the BC mile, he'll be in for a long day. · 278 days ago ·

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Spectacular Woodbine Mile Bullet for Wise Dan

Wise Dan turned in a sensational 45.89-second four-furlong turf work this morning on the Oklahoma course. The work was the best of 45 at the distance, and trainer Charles Lopresti had Wise Dan going five furlongs in :56 3/5 and galloping out six furlongs in 1:10. Read More

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likin sparks · Charlie said it best "He's just a freak of nature" and I agree it's always fun to watch this monster eat up the race track. · 299 days ago ·

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platano.lajara · Pure Awesomeness woow · 299 days ago ·

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TimSmith · Love Wise Dan.. Really a beast right now! · 299 days ago ·

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