[Edit]

2006 Breeders' Cup Juvenile (G1)

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Date/Track:

11/4/2006, Churchill Downs

Distance:

1 1/16 m (Dirt)

Age/Sex:

2 M

Time:

1:42.59

*Rank is current Power Ranking among all active horses, based on highest HRN rating. Rating is based on HRN member voting.

Fin

Silks

Horse / Sire

Rating

Trainer / Jockey

Last Start / Next Start

1st

Street Sense
Street Cry

8.16

C. Nafzger
C. Borel

4th, 2007 Breeders' Cup Classic (G1)

2nd

Circular Quay
Thunder Gulch

6.82

T. Pletcher
G. Gomez

4th, 2008 Oaklawn Handicap (G2)

3rd

Great Hunter
Aptitude

5.23

D. O'Neill
C. Nakatani

6th, 2009 Donn Handicap (G1)

4th

Scat Daddy
Johannesburg

7.34

T. Pletcher
J. Velazquez

18th, 2007 Kentucky Derby (G1)

5th

Stormello
Stormy Atlantic

6.54

W. Currin
K. Desormeaux

19th, 2007 Kentucky Derby (G1)

6th

C P West
Came Home

3.89

N. Zito
R. Bejarano

5th, 2007 Travers Stakes (G1)

7th

U D Ghetto
Honour And Glory

3.89

A. Reinstedler
M. Smith

10th, TP Claim (3/18/2011-R4)

8th

King Of The Roxy
Littleexpectations

4.34

T. Pletcher
E. Prado

7th, CD AlwOC (11/14/2009-R8)

9th

Skip Code
Skip Away

3.39

M. Casse
P. Husbands

7th, OP Claim (4/14/2012-R3)

Oct 1 - WO Claim (10/1/2011-R8)

10th

Teuflesberg
Johannesburg

3.89

J. Sanders
R. Albarado

4th, 2007 King's Bishop (G1)

11th

Pegasus Wind
Fusaichi Pegasus

4.39

D. Lukas
M. Luzzi

11th, 2006 Breeders' Cup Juvenile (G1)

12th

Malt Magic
Cherokee Run

3.73

B. Baffert
J. Court

12th, 2006 Breeders' Cup Juvenile (G1)

13th

Got the Last Laugh
Distorted Humor

5.23

W. Mott
R. Douglas

5th, 2008 Tiznow Handicap (LS)

14th

Principle Secret
Sea of Secrets

3.73

C. Paasch
V. Espinoza

3rd, BHP Claim (7/18/2009-R5)

What the Nation is saying about the 2006 Breeders' Cup Juvenile (G1)...

Breeders Cup Classic: Curlin, King of the Titans

“And Curlin is POWERHOUSING home! In the Race of the Year, for Horse of the Year, it’s all Curlin, in an absolutely STYLISH performance!” Read More

Show All 81 Comments
brooklyn.steve · An all time great. It's a shame his only out of the money finish was because the BC made the awful decision to run on the synthetic surface and give dirt horses no chance. Outside of that he had a 3rd in The KY Derby and the Haskell, where he could only be beaten by other top 3yos. Have not seen a horse like him since. Horse of the Year, and the Decade by far. · 218 days ago ·

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DeadHeat · He was Horse of the Decade for me. No horse as solid as he was against the level of competition he faced. He also was good enough to run second in a grade one over turf. Not many horses that are as dominant on dirt are able to transfer that to the turf like he did. Feb 2007 he was no more than a maiden and by Jan 2008 he was HOTY. Amazing horse. · 218 days ago ·

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travel_vic · I have several freinds who saw what I did: a maxed out performance by Curlin in the middle of the summer and slight, but obvious form down swint going into the fall. Surface change did not help, but that was not the only factor at work. · 218 days ago ·

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LAZMANNICK · Curlin was always one of my favorites along with Ghostzapper, Smarty Jones and Zenyatta. As much as I like him I don’t consider him the horse of the decade. I don’t think he was close to being the equal of Ghostzapper who defeated two Dubai World Cup winners as well as two BCC winners and HOY Azeri. In the three common distances they both ran, 7F, 9F and 10F, Ghostzapper ran each distance faster. And seeing how Rags dueled him into defeat in the Belmont, I shudder to think what Zenyatta would have done if the two would have met. · 218 days ago ·

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DeadHeat · Laz, Ghostzapper was undoubtably the most brilliant, and HOTD is a matter of opinion and is subjective. For me its not just about speed and brilliance. If it was Zapper would be there. I chose Curlin because he faced the best on several occasions and never once was taken out due to injury. He was fast, maybe not the fastest, but still fast and was a true Classic horse. I feel he had the best overall record. Had talent, he faced the best, held up extremely well over the course of his career, he just had it all. Wher horses like Zapper had the brilliance but not the surdiness, Zenyatta brilliant, one could argue sturdy, but didn't face the best and rarely traveled. Also, remember that the Belmont was after he had just run two grueling races, and was on his fourth race in 8 weeks. Rags was much more rested at the time. On Zenyatta, you already know my opinions on that, so I won't bother getting into an old debate that nobody wins. · 218 days ago ·

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AndyScoggin · I was there for those cold wet BC days at Monmouth and there was some great performances, including Curlin. I hope Monmouth gets another chance to host the BC in 2014. I assume that the BC will be at Santa Anita in 2013 again. · 218 days ago ·

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travel_vic · Monmouth got a bad rep because of therain (their crew had that track as well as it could be under the circumstances), hte MAJOR breakdown and euthanasia of the European horse, and marginal TV coverage. ESPN has done a very poor job of it. · 218 days ago ·

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DeadHeat · it was not Monmouth's fault for George Washington. That is belongs to his connections. Their horse and they decided to run for whatever reason instead of withdrawing, which would have been in his best interest that day. I agree the track was as good as could be that day. · 218 days ago ·

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goblin · Curlin's Belmont against Rags was at 1 1/2 miles, a distance at which Zenyatta never even started. How can anyone shudder to think that Rags' narrow victory over a tired Curlin at that distance has any comparison value at all. Curlin did not start until Feb. of his 3y/o season and managed to complete that year and ship to Dubai soon after the BCC win. He then carried 132lbs. in his Dubai prep for the World Cup and coasted to the winner's circle. BTW, that Belmont loss was closely following his record in the Preakness. He never had one hint of an injury during his campaign. He is absolutely deserving of his Horse of the Decade designation by BH's Steve Haskin. · 218 days ago ·

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Mike in SB · Curlin as Horse of the Decade is interesting. I personally don't think he was the best older male, I would put Ghostzapper and Invasor above him and I would put him behind Point Given and maybe Smarty and Afleet Alex as 3 year olds. But he is the only horse to put two very good years together and that probably does make him the Horse of the Decade. As for the Breeders Cup at Monmouth, it has to be the most disappointing I have ever attended. The weather was terrible, especially Friday, and George Washington breaking down right in front of the stands ruined it for me. But I liked the track and the area and maybe they will get another chance. · 218 days ago ·

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goblin · Ghostzapper started 11 times over a three year period with gaps of 6 months between races frequently. Curlin raced 16 times in two seasons with 9 starts as a 3y/o. There were no gaps for "R&R" or injury. · 218 days ago ·

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DeadHeat · Mike, on talent Zapper would have been ahead of him, but body of work again is it for me and only Invasor, IMO could be put above him in that area as an older horse. He only ran in four races in 06, but all grade ones and the four races were over the course of about 5 1/2 months. It sucks that he didn't get a complete season in 08, I would have loved to see him agains LR in the Whitney and against the BCC lot that year. Zapper, again brilliant but was raced too sparingly for my taste. Also the fact that you mentioned, Curlin have two full, complete, and very successful years helps him a great deal in my mind. He made a great deal of history in 07 and 08. · 218 days ago ·

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footlick · IMO, Curlin would have never beaten Ghostzapper, no matter what distance they ran. If you want to hold Ghostzapper's soundness issues against him then you do. But he was the more brilliant of the two and , IMO, the better of the two · 218 days ago ·

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footlick · I will go with which horse I feel was better. Longevity is nice but does not make the horse better · 218 days ago ·

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goblin · I would submit that longevity is more than "nice" when soundness is the basis for it. Of course you can "feel" GZ was the better horse. IMO Curlin's resume is much more substantial. · 218 days ago ·

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footlick · As I said, you can hold Ghostzapper's soundness issues against him. I can also "feel" how many widening lengths Curlin would have finished behind Ghostzapper too. · 218 days ago ·

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DeadHeat · Footlick, Curlin's two season's trump that of Zapper's one. Brilliant, easily the most brilliant horse of the decade, but Curlin was far more accomplished and due to his ability to stay sound he was able to race more often giving him the resume he compiled. One can always think one horse is better, but if they never met, you can't actually know, meaning you then go by body of work. Curlin has that in spades. · 218 days ago ·

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footlick · You value body of work. I value brilliance. I believe Ghostzapper would have easily defeated Curlin on the track. I think Curlin was a talented horse, but certainly, just my opinion, not the best of the Decade. So I could never say he was the best. Ghostzapper had soundness issues. So, people hold that against him. To me, he was pounds better than Curlin. But, we all have our opinion. · 218 days ago ·

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goblin · I am not holding soundness against GZ, nor am I the only one who has mentioned his gaps on this thread. I am saying that Curlin's soundness is a most positive attribute, especially in this day of weeping and wailing over the lack thereof in our North American horses/stallions. I find the use of the word "feel" a bit odd here. You can have any opinion you want, as can anyone on the blog, but Curlin's more substantial record is just that. · 218 days ago ·

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travel_vic · Great line from the movie Balde Runner: "The light that shines twice as bright burns half as long." · 218 days ago ·

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footlick · Since my use of the word "feel" seems odd now, I think I'll let you factual people continue this thread. Have a great day. · 218 days ago ·

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CauseForConcern · Ghostzapper was good. Street Cry was another that his on his way to greatness, but his career was shortened. As for Curlin, I really enjoyed his run. And running with Street Sense and Hard Spun, those three always were near the top. One special shout-out goes to Helen Pitt. She brought Curlin along, and when he annihilated his foes in his maiden win, she would lose him. Thanks, Helen, for being a part of this colt's run. · 218 days ago ·

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AndyScoggin · Dani--There is much to know and read about the breakdown of George Washington. There is a controversial book that talks about it. Clearly, there is more to it than his connections making a bad decison to run him in the race. · 218 days ago ·

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CauseForConcern · Since you bring up the topic of George Washington, isn't it ironic that the same people that bred George Washington also bred Barbaro? · 218 days ago ·

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footlick · Curlin was never, ever a better horse. Look at both of their thoro-graph numbers, ragozin numbers and Beyer numbers. A long career does not make a better horse. It makes a horse who ran for a longer amount of time. If It is going to be commented on as to me "feeling" , then I will give you the reasons why I " feel" that way. By all accounts Ghostzapper would have run away from Curlin, using three different speed figures. · 218 days ago ·

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LAZMANNICK · Not considering Zenyatta brilliant is a joke at best. Anjy horse that can run the final mile in a 10F race in 1.33.1 and win a BCC to boot is brilliant. · 218 days ago ·

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dani.pugh · Laz, don't know who said anything about Zenyatta not being brilliant. She could be, when given the chance. Footlick, chill. As you said in your post before this last rant, it is a matter of opinion. You bring up number, which are all well and good but all have flaws, especially when going from year to year to year. The two horses never met, so, for me I go to their body of work. I believe Curlin's is better, and i think many would agree. You go by brilliance, and not many would argue that Ghostzapper was the most brilliant. It just depends on what you consider most important. · 218 days ago ·

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footlick · Laz- we aren't going there again, are we-lol. · 218 days ago ·

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footlick · First of all, I don't need to be told to chill, as I feel I do not rant half as much as many on here. Secondly, my comment was for goblin, who seemed to infer that I somehow was not using anything factual, where as he was. That you felt the need to chime in is interesting. Thirdly, if there was little difference between Curlin's and Ghostzapper's figures, or just one number was vastly superior or only one system rated him superior, I might think otherwise. But three vastly different speed rating systems have Ghostzapper clearly much superior tells me that the horse was better, and not slightly better but quite a bit better. And I think Jerry Brown might have something to say about being able to use his numbers to compare horses of different years. That you and goblin feel that body work is the most important is your right. But, it does not make a horse better no matter how much you or anyone else professes that it does. You can never say Curlin was a better horse, because it is false. He was not a better horse. He had a longer career. That is important to you. Being a better horse is important to me. But, to be clear, my comment was not meant for you but to the person who was bothered by my use of the word "feel". And I am now defending what I said, not "ranting", just, again, to be clear. As Icy would say, "Have a great night". As I would say, "this has now become boring and tedious." Have fun · 218 days ago ·

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BrianAppleton · I love it Dani, so good!! Those memories are some of my best...I was standing on my seat screaming him on at the top of my lungs as he thundered past me...if there's one day I could live over again right now it would be that day when I was at Monmouth. Go Curlin! :) · 218 days ago ·

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LAZMANNICK · You've got me laughing Footlick. Of course we're not going there. As for Dani saying that Curlin met better, wow, I don’t think so, and this from a fan who at times felt like I would be physically ill whenever he raced. Curlin faced a few really good horses in Street Sense, Rags to Riches, (three year olds not older) and the Ill-fated George Washington. Others like Hard Spun (one G1 win at 7F), Any Given Saturday who defeated him in the Haskell (his only G1 win), Lawyer Ron who won the Whitney and Woodward against moderate fields and who took 22 starts to win his first G1; all these cannot be considered great, at least for an over-all career. His Dubai World Cup win was against one of the weaker fields in the event. Asiatic Boy who was second never won a Group One or G1 race in his career. Well Armed would eventually win a World Cup but he also lost six G2 and G3 races in his career. In the meantime Ghostzapper defeated two World Cup winners plus two HOY winners plus two BCC winners, ran extremely fast 6F, 6.5F,7F, 8F, 9F and 10F races and was credited with one of the highest Beyers all time. I love Curlin but he never ran against the overall quality of horses that Ghostzapper did. · 218 days ago ·

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footlick · Laz, Laz. I'm sure it is better if I just don't comment at all. · 218 days ago ·

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LAZMANNICK · Footlick I would rather discuss those big three in the late sixties, Dr. Fager, Damascus and Buckpasser. Now they give me chills. · 218 days ago ·

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icyhotboo · Buckpasser covered ground in a way I've never seen in another horse. The phrase "quick turn of foot" doesn't do him justice.BTW: I was at Aqueduct when the three of them ran in the Woodward. Both Buckpasser and Damascus entered rabbits to offset Dr. Fagers speed. It was Buckpasser's last race, he suffered from nagging injuries his whole career and still won 15 in a row against the best. On that particular day I don't think it mattered as Damascus was at the top of his form and was just awsome. He's another with the "quick turn of foot. · Dr. Fager was my favorite, but Buckpasser injury free giving 100% was a match for the three reds. · 218 days ago ·

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LAZMANNICK · Right on ICy. Some great memories for sure. · 218 days ago ·

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Mary Z. · I call a little skewing. Didn't Ghostzapper beat St Liam by only a neck in that super fast '04 Woodward? St Liam was not a grade 1 winner at that point. He was an allowance winner and grade 2 placed. He would become in/for '05 a grade 1 winner, BCC winner and HOTY . I mean, it goes the other way, too, saying Lawyer Ron took 22 starts to win a grade 1(was it 23?), or it could be put more positively, he won at his fourth try at a grade 1. 1:46.64 for that 1st grade 1 win in the '07 Whitney. Lawyer Ron took the Woodward, too. I'd be tempted to be generous and say Curlin beat him when he was at his best. Who knows, maybe Lawyer Ron didn't like Churchill, turf or slop. See how this generous thing goes? And nothing doing saying Curlin beat Well Armed that "eventually became a DWC winner", if Roses In May gets to be included as a DWC winner that Ghostzapper beat. When Ghostzapper raced Roses In May, Roses In May was the winner of a single grade 1, the '04 Whitney. Idk about putting Azeri in there two years after her HOTY campaign, but then it's not my skew and I throw in all kinds of points to build my case for my favs. You guys are fun, and I learn a lot, even when there are hissy fits and people having their times otm. · 218 days ago ·

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LAZMANNICK · As for those gaps in Ghostzapper's career Goblin, that's a good point. I think that it’s in credible that a horse in three successive years can run 6F in 1.09.1 off a 6-month layoff with a final quarter in 23.1; 7F in 1.20.2 off a 10-month layoff with a final 3/8ths in 35.4; and a mile in 1.33.1 after a 7-month layoff with a final quarter in 24.4 and winning by 6 ½ eased up. The fact that he wasn’t sound and that Bobby Frankel touts him as the best he ever trained speaks loads of his raw abilities, without question the most talented male horse in N/A this millennium. · 218 days ago ·

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footlick · I'm just going by numbers and who they point to as the better horse. Two foreign rating systems also ranked them in their best years. Timeform gave Ghostzapper a 137 to Curlin's 134. Racing Post gave Ghostzapper a 135 to Curlin's 131. And just to be fair, IWTR gave each a 130 in their best year. But, not that it means anything. · 218 days ago ·

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footlick · Laz and Icy- they were amazing. · 218 days ago ·

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footlick · Of course we could talk about Zarkava......, but no. Brief body of work but brilliant. · 218 days ago ·

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dani.pugh · laz, I never said Curlin faced better than zapper. I was actually referring to zenyatta. I think overall he faced better than her on a more consistent basis. footlick when you get your panties boxers or whatever in a bunch over what is essentially a very subjective topic them you do need to chill. I like body of work. you like brilliance. if you were really ok with that you wouldn't be making sore childish remarks. · 217 days ago ·

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footlick · Ms Pugh, as obviously, sine you are lecturing me, I don't feel I have the right to call you Dani, maybe you should re-read all the comments you have made site wide before you lecture anybody. I have not said one personal or insulting thing. I have supported my point of view with not one set of numbers, which could be refuted, not two sets of numbers, which still could be brushed aside, but Beyer, Ragozin, Thoro-graph, Timeform and Racing Post, which the first three had Ghostzapper consistently running better numbers, and the other two from Europe rating both horses best race and having Ghostzapper better. I apologize if that doesn't concur with what you wrote. I apologize if I am not supposed to support it with some sort of passion and get peeved when goblin said that they had trouble with my use of the word "feel". I'm sorry that you felt you had to make two pointed comments at me, when I didn't direct my comments to you, as I said previously. Since it seems you have a problem with me and with my comments, I will make sure I don't comment on your threads or posts. This site regularly has people who are far more emotional and abusive in their language than I am, but you decided to single out me. You won't have to do that anymore. · 217 days ago ·

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Zenyatta-Perfection Personified · Street Sense was my boy, and I (sadly) held it against Curlin whenever he beat Sense, but I have a huge amount of respect for him. He had all the things today's horses seem to be lacking - stamina, soundness, world-travelling ability, and speed. · 217 days ago ·

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goblin · footlick---This is almost amusing at this point... First of all, I'm not a "he", I'm a female--that's just for clarification. I simply did not understand the use of the word "feel", when it seemed cognition was required, meaning "think" or "believe" might fit the situation better. Secondly, you brought the longevity into the conversation and I commented on longevity/soundness. I do not and did not hold anything against GZ; I simply noticed and pointed out the gaps in his record. Curlin was on the track only two years--2007 and 2008. GZ ran (I'm doing this from memory) 2002, 2003, 2004, and 1 or 2 races in 2005 I think; so I'm not clear on how Curlin had a longer career. I would not say he had longevity; I would say he packed much successful racing into a relatively brief career actually. That was my point in listing their numbers of starts in one of my original comments above. I will stand by my statement that Curlin had a more substantial career. By definition that would mean more "solid, strong, or firm" among other usages. You could call it his substantial body of work as Dani characterized it. I would consider Curlin the Horse of the Decade and was pleased when Haskin came to that conclusion as well. His reasoning is easy to locate via the BH search site, and included such things as the difficulty of Curlin's 3y/o campaign, no starts at age 2, and his extreme consistency. You certainly do not have to believe that Curlin is a better horse, and I don't think I ever used those specific words on this thread. BTW LAZ, my heart nearly beat out of my chest during his Dubai World Cup start. · 217 days ago ·

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Age of Reason · Footlick is the only one on this thread I've seen who has backed up his opinion with multiple valid sources. Have some class, Dani! You're giving me eery reminders of the She-lost-get-over yellow journalism we used to have to put up with on BloodHorse... · 217 days ago ·

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Mary Z. · JC, It's all there at equibase and videos, not like it's a secret. Get some fresh air. The Tapit foal will appreciate it, AoR. · 217 days ago ·

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dani.pugh · age backed up how? numbers? they are subjective and have flaws, especially when compared nearly five years apart. the only way to have known is for them to have faced and they did not. you can not back up he was better based off of numbers only. you can have opinion, same as I do as in regards to body of work but you can't be sure. Curlin accomplished more. resume side by side that can't be argued. footlick basest his opinion off of brilliance and that is fine, but to get in a huff over somebody not agreeing with you when neither have solid facts to say one was better than the other is pointless. then to get in a huff at me for saying to chill and explaining why, is classless. f you want to pick out where I packed class in asking one to chill, be my guest. being blunt is not rude. you do not see me crying just because he disagrees with me? you do not see me saying I will never speak to him again. I have different qualifications, therefore a different opinion, big deal. I'll debate facts with you, what a horse did our didn't accomplish, but i'm not going to get upset and worried by debating opinions that are based off of individual preferences or feelings. · 217 days ago ·

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footlick · interesting. Now I'm classless. And I didn;t even say it. And you wonder why I am baffled by being singled out when you are allowed to say things like this about me? I don't even need to say anything else. · 217 days ago ·

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footlick · I never said you were classless. Who are you to criticize me, period? · 217 days ago ·

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footlick · Please just stop mentioning me. I will defend myself if I am going to be insulted, but I would rather not, so please do not mention me. Period. · 217 days ago ·

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dani.pugh · footlick. read.I didn't say you called me classless. and also this is not high school. I will mention whoever I want. i'm not going to hide. if you'd like to comment be my guest if you do not care then don't. by the way my comments were not pointed. until my last to you I was not lecturing. I was simply telling you it want worth your time to debate what you like vs what another person does because it is way to subjective. I hope that clears it up for you. · 217 days ago ·

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footlick · "Then to get in a huff at me for saying to chill and explaining why, is classless" . Please read your own post before saying you did not call me classless. · 217 days ago ·

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footlick · I said that I didn't call you classless because you called me classless in the part of your statement that I put in quotes. It may be paraphrased though. That you again felt the need to do something like call what I did classless speaks volumes. · 217 days ago ·

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dani.pugh · footlick, that was not me saying that you called me classless. I actually called your actions classless with that sentence. I never said you called me that. age of reasons did, which is why I used that choice of words. I believe the actions are more childish than classless. I say actions because typically you'reone of the sanest most reasonable posters, yet on a matter that is based purely of opinion and preference you get upset. for a person who is typically very level headed you haven't been which again is why I initially said you should chill, because to debate person preference is not worth getting so upset about. · 217 days ago ·

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LAZMANNICK · Mary correction. I’m not throwing any hissy fits, AT LEAST NOT YET!!, just joking. I am having trouble though in trying to see how Well Armed, Street Sense, Hard Spun, Lawyer Ron, Asiatic Boy and Wanderin Boy were better horses and had better overall careers than Roses in May, Saint Liam, Pleasantly Perfect, Perfect Drift and Azeri. The overall records of the final five actually dwarf the overall records of the first six, which is proven by their number of G1 wins, BCC wins, HOY title, and World Cup victories, Perfect Drift might have only won a single G1 but he finished 2nd in G1 races to Roses in May and Pleasantly Perfect and won his G1 against multi G1 winner and HOY Mineshaft…...Then take a look at that Woodward that Saint Liam ran. He was head and head and bumped many times in a roughly run race with fractions of 45.3, 108.3, 1.33.1, and 1.46.1 and this while carrying 126 lbs. The race he ran that day would have buried those first six and. Sad to say, Curlin. After that race he then won the G2 Clark against a good field, and the G1’s Donn, Foster, Woodward and BCC and lost the Whitney when finishing second by a neck to Commentator (when this one was in his prime) and still received a 123 Beyer. Yes it took him a while to get his first G1 win but it should be noted that his trainer for his first 8 races was Anthony Reinstedler, not a big league trainer in the sense of his following trainers, Richard Dutrow, and Bobby Frankel. As for the rest, their records and accomplishments speak for themselves. · 217 days ago ·

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dani.pugh · laz again I never said he faced better than ghostzapper. the comment was in referenceto zenyattas competition vs Curlins. · 217 days ago ·

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Mary Z. · Oh, I only chirped in really since the wonderful Brian Appleton said how much he liked Curlin, but as long as the debate horses don't get credit for beating HOTYs or BCC winners or DWC winners AFTER they faced them, then I'll just be a voyeur here. That one person sorta ticked me off though. Wish everyone would use the same names all over. I do tire of checking sentence structure, misuse of past participles, etc. On your subject though, Laz, would you say that Roses In May got better after facing Ghostzapper and that Azeri was at her best a year or so before facing Ghostzapper? These are actual questions, not meant to be leading or disrespectful. · 217 days ago ·

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Mary Z. · To clarify, as long as the debate horses don't get credit for beating horses that won those races/awards after they faced Ghostzapper or Curlin. · 217 days ago ·

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LAZMANNICK · Mary you're probably right about Azeri though I don't think in her prime she would have beaten Roses in May or Saint Liam in their prime and she wasn’t as good as Curlin. As for Saint Liam in that Woodward, it's my contention that he was every bit as good when he ran in that race as he was at any time in his career so the fact that was the race that probably defined how good he would be, IMO he was really, really good that day, as good as when he won the BCC. I’m also not being fair when I talk about Street Sense and Hard Spun as unfortunately we never got to see them run be at four. In truth, I probably like Curlin more than I did Ghostzapper, (both actually got under my skin much like Northern Dancer, Dr. Fager and Zenyatta did) but I don’t think he was anywhere close to being as good as the Ghost. Unfortunately, because of injuries, we never got to see how really good he was even though his career, as is, was stellar. · 217 days ago ·

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Mary Z. · I agree about Ghostzapper being brilliant when he could run. Now here's an interesting(to me) question. Would more horses also show such brilliance if raced as sparingly? I do think there's something to be said on the positive side about being a consistent(and top-notch) winner through a longer campaign or career. · 217 days ago ·

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LAZMANNICK · Mary, in answer to your question, IMO there are pros and cons about racing sparingly. Back in the day it was basically taboo to run a good horse sparingly and in preparation for many of their big races they even ran in preps and had a limitless string of workouts, sometimes several in one week. I guess that we could relate that to breeding and overall soundness. In this day soundness is definitely a major issue. Horses don’t work all that often, rarely engage in preps for big races and have relatively short careers such as Blame, Creative Cause, Quality Road, etc. and etc. It is common now to see horses run after a lengthily layoff such as DeHoss in his two BC Turf Scores, Gilded Time in back-to-back BC races (of his first five career races, two were BC races) and now Animal Kingdom going to the BC Turf Mile off a long layoff and also coming off a troublesome injury. Less wear and tear seems to be the theme now while back in the day it was work, work, work. Both styles seem to be successful given the times. · 217 days ago ·

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Mary Z. · Yah, in general, I don't like sparingly,Laz, but then I have had favorites that had gaps due to injury/layoffs. Maybe I'm thinking of things that make one go, inh, but on a much slower/lesser scale, such as Pool Play coming along and rather embarrassing stakes fields with his "upset" long shot wins. About Animal Kingdom in the BC Turf, while I'm for the Cali turf milers on their "home" course, there is something about the power that comes through in the photos and videos of AK since he's been in training again at Fair Hill. Not saying he'll win, but that he belongs in the Mile field. Different kind of works in those Fair Hill fields. · 217 days ago ·

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Mary Z. · No decision yet on AK's jockey, but they should try to get Dominguez or offer some incentive to get Velazquez off of Wise Dan. AK might be pulling with his mouth wide open after all the time off. · 217 days ago ·

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LAZMANNICK · I agree about Animal Kingdom. Even though his biggest win was at 10F I truly believe that he’ll excel in that Mile Turf race. He is a very powerful horse with a good burst of speed, IMO qualities that are necessary to win at a mile. I believe that he, along with Wise Dan, give us our best chance to win this race in quite some time. And that’s not to say that another N/A horse couldn’t step up, especially on the Santa Anita course which should be lightening fast. · 217 days ago ·

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Mary Z. · That hill is already blazing fast, Laz. I expect a record in the Turf Sprint. Have to see how the turf races go this weekend on the regular course. · 217 days ago ·

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Age of Reason · I'm through with this argument, and only commented originally because I felt Footlick had been singled out merely for using the comments page as it was designed--to disagree. If you want a good argument, head over to BloodHorse and read the brilliant article by Steve Haskin, in rebuttal of Beyer's piece at DRF which argued that the American thoroughbred is in decline. The first commenter was from Europe, and referred to "second-string horses like Rachel Alexandra [and] Zenyatta", so I'd say the fight is on... · 217 days ago ·

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ruffian75 · Hi, Laz. I know you were discussing horses that are on the shelf for a long period of time, and then begin to resume their career. One horse that I would like to throw into that debate, is Flat Out. He was on the shelf for an extended period time in the midst of his 3-year-old campaign. He resumed his career, and has shown up at times. The owners decided to turn him over to the guidance of William Mott. Mott's had (I think) three races with him. If everything is going according to plan with Mott, he might be showing up at Santa Anita for his best effort? Anyhow, that's my best for the prognostication game. Watch out for Flat Out. · 217 days ago ·

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Mary Z. · I'll butt in with a big like for Flat Out and Bill Mott. Agreeing with ruffian75 to watch out for a better finish than last year for Flat Out--I'm adding that part. I gotta use G.O.D. on top in the BCC, too, though. · 217 days ago ·

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LAZMANNICK · Age of Reason, I read some of those responses. My answer to them is probably best described by good old Forrest Gump: “stupid is what stupid is”. These people shouldn’t in any way be described as knowledgeable. They’re bandwagon jumpers who just like to jump on the next bandwagon that comes along. · 217 days ago ·

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LAZMANNICK · Ruffian75, good to hear from you and I hope all is well. I’ve always been hard on Flat Out in the past, sometimes probably justifiably so and at others probably without justification. I don’t think Flat Out was thought of as being an upper echelon horse early on in his career, but here he is, a back-to-back winner of what was once America’s premier fall race. When he’s on and when he is positioned properly in a race he can run with any horse that’ll probably be entered in the BCC. Two things to consider: how will he run in California as opposed to his favorite track back east; and if the track is hard, which it might be, how will it affect his feet? As for Mott, IMO and for many other’s as well, he’s as good or better than any trainer in America and has been for years so you can bet he’ll run in the race properly prepared and with the right running strategy. · 217 days ago ·

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Mary Z. · I read all of your gossipy crap at BH, AoR. Way to stick to the subject, and I do not agree with your perceptions, btw. Now I have no shame about having my pets, though, so thanks for the freedom. · 217 days ago ·

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Mary Z. · Annoyingly haughty username. Go ahead and "yell" at me and tell me how people don't like me. Ouch. · 217 days ago ·

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Mary Z. · And if you think it's such an Amateur Hour around here, well? · 217 days ago ·

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Mary Z. · You pissed me off, AoR, and that takes some doing. I happen to like this blog writer's unbiased approach about facts. One does however allow for opinion. · 217 days ago ·

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Mary Z. · Another thing is, I wouldn't dream of offering such silliness for that particular BH blog as you did. · 217 days ago ·

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footlick · he responded to me as I thanked him for his comment, which you must realize if you read the BH blog comments. I brought the subject up. And there are points of his that are valid. But you are always liked by me. · 217 days ago ·

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footlick · that comment was for Mary Z., just to be clear. · 217 days ago ·

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Mary Z. · He? I thought AoR is like a 53 yo woman with the hots for you footy. My mistake. He? Really? Yah, Your comment was okay, footy. Hers was gossipy. He? You're puttin' me on. · 217 days ago ·

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footlick · Mary Z.- I used he as a universal, like ils in French. I don;t know i AoR is a man or woman actually. As far as the comments about the site in general, I do have to say there were some that rang true, at least in my experience. But, I don't come here for serious information either. There are people here that I enjoy and people I don't, just like in life. You are one of the enjoyable people. Tried to comment earlier, but got shut out by the site maintenance. Anyway, I have to go finish a painting. Have a good night. · 217 days ago ·

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Mary Z. · I like you and this website, footy. Latest news is here, and some people are dead serious-you know who :) · 217 days ago ·

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icyhotboo · ruffian75, thanks for the comment concerning Flat Out. Somehow it slipped my mind how well his progression has gone. Mott is one of my favorite trainers. · 216 days ago ·

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