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Ride
Twice Over
against other champions!

Twice Over

8 year old Horse
Retired
0 fans0

1 favorite1

[Edit]

Owner(s):

Prince Khalid Abdullah -

Trainer:

Sir Henry Cecil

Bred:

(GB) by - Juddmonte Farms Ltd

Pedigree:

Observatory - Double Crossed by Caerleon

Rating:

7.69/10

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What the Horse Racing Nation is saying about Twice Over...

Who Has Zenyatta Beaten?

Nineteen up, nineteen down. Zenyatta has done it all. Her quest for a pair of perfect 10s comes in a few weeks at Churchill Downs with the world watching in the Breeders' Cup Classic. But there is an undeniable question standing in her way to 20 consecutive victories -- the competition. Even the mos...Read More

Show All 49 Comments
humphrey · The clock, energy dynamics of pace. the traditonal positional proclivities of the deep closer and EVERY pace thrown at her....The particulars are not any different than that · 940 days ago ·

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humphrey · Bloodhorse has a good article about her http://cs.bloodhorse.com/blogs/wgoh/archive/2010/10/19/lost-opportunities-by-eric-mitchell.aspx · 940 days ago ·

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medlocke · Looks like a pretty respectable group to me. Both male and female alike. Plus, the field she'll face in the 2010 Breeders Cup Classic will only serve to strengthen that list. I challenge any horse, male or female, to give away the weight that Zenyatta has given away so many times in so many races, and see if they still come up undefeated under those taxing circumstances? It's almost unheard of for a deep closer, more often than not, saddled with a boulder while the competition carries a brick, to be able to find the wire every time first without failure. Zenyatta's drive, and refuse to lose attitude is second to none in the sport, worldwide. This mare can run all day long. Stamina will be her deadliest weapon at Churchill Downs. I think both Quality Road and Blame, off of his JCGC run, are suspect at best to not fade at 1-1/4. I think it's likely Lookin At Lucky could prove to be her strongest opposition. But provided that Mike Smith does his job correctly, and times the ride correctly, I think her shear power and closing onslaught will prove too much for all in the race. As I said before, let other horses try giving away the weight that Zenyatta has given on a regular basis. Then see how their lifetime record comes out? Unbelievable that this mare, given her running style, and handicaps in races is still a perfect 19 for 19. Make no mistake. What Zenyatta has already accomplished is history making. If she win's this year's Breeders Cup Classic? It will be legendary for all-time. JMO. · 940 days ago ·

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wildwestzona · I would love to see them do this same list for Rachel's competition. If a horse dominates the FEMALE CLASIC, Wins The BCC, beats Switch (who beat blind luck), beats the horse Zardana(that Rachel lost to), and is 19-0 over a 3 year period - then I don't care if the races are on concrete against donkey's, that is one heck of a career and IMO makes her the greatest female in American Sports Racing History. · 940 days ago ·

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wildwestzona · Forgot to mention: REGAL RANSOM who beat BLAME people. SUMMER BIRD who was voted 2009 MALE champion people!!! GIOPONTI who is the best MALE turf horse in America. · 940 days ago ·

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luvzenyatta · There's that ugly symbol again. I agree totally that Rachel should not ever have a 1 rating, but at this point in Zenyatta's undefeated 19 for 19 career she should never have a red down arrow next to her name. No excuses or explanations accepted:) · 939 days ago ·

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luvzenyatta · Z haters: Repeat after me, 19 for 19, 19 for 19, 19 for 19. There's no denying the greatness of this accomplishment. · 939 days ago ·

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bob46 · Z tea drinkers, repeat after me, Horse of the Year RA, horse of the year RA, horse of the year RA, Poly Lover Zenyatta, Poly lover Zenyatta, Poly lover Zenyatta, · 939 days ago ·

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Skyharbor21 · No one wanted to race her for 2nd at the Apple Blossom. Surely the east coast fillies who excel on dirt would have stepped up to take her on. But no one wanted to get beat, that includes RA. · 939 days ago ·

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perimeters · bob46, Rachel Alexandra did win 2009 Horse of the Year, but she probably ran the weakest campaign of any defending Horse of the Year in 2010. Understand your track surfaces. Zenyatta does not seem to care for Del Mar's Polytrack surface but she wins anyway. She has also won two Grade 1 races on regular dirt, and numerous others on Hollywood's Cushion Track and Santa Anita's Pro-Ride. Since you seem enamoured with Rachel, where was you princess when Zenyatta was romping in the 2010 Apple Blossom? · 939 days ago ·

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cugel the clever · LOL - Pathetic to see the zenyphiles defending the supposed "strength" of last year's BCC field. I notice the poll of the day asks who you like to win the Mile, and the great Gio Ponti, who Z beat last year gets only 11% of the vore for 4th place and he isn't even good enough for his connections to enter him in the Classic this year! Yup, Z sure did beat some strong competion last year..... · 939 days ago ·

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mdracing69 · cugel, I read that Gio Ponti is going to be pre-entered in the BC Mile and Classic. “At the moment our intention is to enter in both the races,” Stuart Fitzgibbon, commercial manager at Castleton-Lyons, said Thursday afternoon. · 939 days ago ·

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icyhotboo · I just can't understand why when you have a great mare and a great filly in the same your need for bashing one or the other. 2009 was a great year for the ladies,Zenyatta beat a very strong field in the classic and the woodward was the most brutal race I've ever seen run. Not one horse who ran in the Woodward is running today and not by choice.Every horse in that race took a shot at her and she put them all away.Getting back to Zenyatta 19-0 is a feat not likely to be seen again.Personally I think she she runs it up to 20 no problem.When you chase a horse a good as Gio Ponti out of entering a race that says volumes about just how good she is. · 939 days ago ·

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zilzal89 · The play over here will be to take the 4-1 Zenyatta now, i will probably be able to lay her at much reduced odds come postime. What do all you folks over there think of the pace of the race?? as it looks set up for the closers here · 938 days ago ·

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medomoreno · I find it sad to witness pettiness regarding this issue. In my opinion, any race including Gio Ponti, Blame, Quality Road, Haynesfied, and Lookin' At Lucky is a helluva race; throw in Zenyatta: WOW!!! Sit back & enjoy. The goal is to win, and for any stretch-runner that translates into: getting up in time. Zenyatta's closest margins of victory have been in races in which the 6 Furlong splits have been: 1:13.06, 1:15.11 [sic], 1:13.64. Does anybody really think that in this coming race we're gonna see a 1:15 split??? · 936 days ago ·

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humphrey · EVERY horse that dared go into the gate with her. · 936 days ago ·

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medomoreno · I find it sad to witness pettiness regarding this issue. In my opinion, any race including Gio Ponti, Blame, Quality Road, Haynesfied, and Lookin' At Lucky is a helluva race; throw in Zenyatta: WOW!!! Sit back & enjoy. The goal is to win, and for any stretch-runner that translates into: getting up in time. Zenyatta's closest margins of victory have been in races in which the 6 Furlong splits have been: 1:13.06, 1:15.11 [sic], 1:13.64. Does anybody really think that in this coming race we're gonna see a 1:15 split??? · 936 days ago ·

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curlin · I have a question to the zenyatta "haters": Do you want her to get beat? I understand you feel she is overrated but, would you not love to see her win? If she were to win she'd be undoubtably a top 5 horse all time. Do you not want to see history? I'm of the group that this year does nothing but add to her legacy. IMO even if she loses she is still an all time great. I just don't see how people can root against her. I was never a fan of RA but I always wanted her to win. Mainly because it would look better when zenyatta beat her. (now we won't get a chance to see that happen). It is just unbelievable to me how you can root against her. · 936 days ago ·

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CraigBradshaw · this prior bcc10, blame proved himself to be a very worthy horse in nosing out zenyatta, albeit on his home track, and a surface more familiar to him than to zen. you could say now that he is the best horse she has met in the classic on dirt, but the always game and underappreciated gio ponti should remain right at the top of the list due to his versatility, and the fact that he did as well against goldikova as he did against zenyatta. quality road, haynesfield, musket man should be put way down around 18, 19, 20, as all 3 of them were non-factors in this classic. fly down could probably be moved into about the 11th position. i'd put espoir city in at about 15th or so. lookin' at lucky could be considered at about 10th. · 848 days ago ·

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CraigBradshaw · in addition, you can see that she has faced the best horses available at least once, that didn't refuse to face her, considering her races were announced well in advance. · 848 days ago ·

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trenchtownrock · Really?....I think that should answer it. · 848 days ago ·

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medlocke · CraigBradshaw, I totally agree. Maybe Zenyatta didn't face the boys as often as myself or many others may have liked? But the one thing you can say is that when she did face the boys, she faced the very best of the best that raced on turf, synthetics, and conventional dirt. And found only one that was able to run a big enough race to withstand her closing kick by mere inches on his home track. A racetrack that Blame had dominated many other G1 winning males throughout his career. Don't get me wrong, I think Blame is a fantastic colt. A real talent that had a great career. But when you can say that you raced 22 of the very best colt's in the world on both synthetics and conventional dirt, and defeated 21 of them soundly, there's certainly no shame in that. If Zenyatta had faced males more often than she face them in her career, would she have more than one loss? Very probably. But I will say that she was a dominant enough race-mare that I don't believe she would've defeated in her division any more often than Goldikova ever get's defeated in hers. TJMO. · 848 days ago ·

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lewpe · Oldest males horses to win the BC Classic were 5 years old. Zenyatta, at 6 years old, takes on 4 year olds in their prime and still puts in a phenomenal performance. She may not have raced many races against the males but as medlocke states she did, indeed, beat 21 of the best soundly. She deserves credit for that. She deserves credit for beating the remaining field in the 2010 BC Classic as well. Her prior 2010 races may have been considered prep races but, as another post states, she gave up weight to lesser experienced opponents to even the odds. She did, in fact, run two very close races which I saw first hand against Switch and Lethal Heat. It's interesting but sad to see the ugly posts that are swirling here which is why I've stayed away. There is a horse for their time and Zenyatta is the horse of our time. She brought renewed interest to the sport for those who have never attended as well as for those of us like myself who have been going to horse racing events for over 30 years. It's exciting to see people genuinely excited again about horse racing. And, it has given us renewed hope in the industry. · 843 days ago ·

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medlocke · Look, did Zenyatta run against the boys as often as we all wanted to see her run against them? Probably not. But when you've raced in back to back Breeders Cup Classics, on two different surfaces, against 22 of the very best colt's in the world that raced on turf, synthetics, and conventional dirt. One can hardly say Zenyatta dodged anybody. And she proved herself better than 21 of the 22 best colt's in the world. Only losing by mere inches to a colt in Blame that was more dominant on the CD track than any other horse in racing has been in the past 2 seasons. JMO. · 810 days ago ·

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icyhotboo · medlocke:Zenyatta ? She won horse of the year for 2010 and went on to mate with Bernardini? This is March 1, 20011 the voting is over wake up, the voting actually took place and she won. Go back to sleep it was just a bad dream. · 809 days ago ·

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Thead'or · This argument is a joke. For some odd Reason every Zenyatta convo somehow has to mention RA's accomplishments. Why? A horse that she never faced, and never will seems to play a questionably big part in her career. Its not who the horses Rachel Alexandra beats, its how she beat them. In the Woodward ANY horse would have gone flat like a cheap tire after the fractions she set. Any 3 year-old filly running in this race [Wait has that ever happened before?] Would have not been anywhere near this field heading for home. She wasn't any 3 year-old filly. Her accomplishments where so far and beyond at that age and gender people got carried away. Trying to pick out minor things, fact is she never let us down that year. Her owners paid the price for it, but we got to see hints of what was of 2009 in 2010. · 809 days ago ·

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footlick · Can we just stop! Why tear down either animal. Let's move on. Please!!!!! · 809 days ago ·

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CraigBradshaw · not trying to dredge up old arguments, but if you read the list, plus the 12 males she finished ahead of in the bcc11, she bettered 30+ G1 winners in her career. · 619 days ago ·

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CauseForConcern · CraigBradshaw: Most were running on her track for the first time(synthetic). You want to come to my house? I'll beat you anytime you wanna play basketball. Don't know if I can beat you at your house, but, then that's another story. · 619 days ago ·

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WesWhite · Goldikova bested almost as many Grade 1 winners in 1 year. Laughable. · 619 days ago ·

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HORSEFACE · CauseForConcern.....AMan.... she was a synthetic specialist...!!! just average away from home. · 619 days ago ·

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CauseForConcern · medlocke: You stated that Zenyatta won back-to-back BC's on two different surfaces. She won both BC's at the same track, same surface. · 619 days ago ·

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icyhotboo · Whats pitiful is that you people had to go back 190 days to start another lame argument between ztchtes · 618 days ago ·

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TimSmith · Seriously MOVE ON.. There are two sides to this argument and neither ever gives in.. Quit being pathetic and move on. · 618 days ago ·

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CraigBradshaw · ww, cfc, horseface.....three teenyboppers still throwing spitwads at a horse. weakest arguments i've ever seen. · 618 days ago ·

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RamonDimas · she beat the best males horses in the U.S. · 618 days ago ·

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CraigBradshaw · and, several G1 winning females, and the best at the time, ginger punch, for a total of well over 40 G1 horses beat by z. · 614 days ago ·

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MarcelloMarocco · IMO she did NOT face the best Turf horses in 2009, if the best Turf Horses raced her Sea The Stars would have won, Conduit could have won, Fame and Glory could have won, Henry the navigator could have won. beating Twice over at 3, RVW @3 ( rode completely wrong in that race up close) is not convincing enough to me that she beat the so called BEST. The BEST raced in the ARC, and the BC Turf, and stuck to their disciplines, and watch the race again to see Gio Ponti have a horrid trip until he found room at the 16th pole. JMO. · 599 days ago ·

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MarcelloMarocco · Plus with all due respect to Blame(who is a champion Dirt Horse) who did she race in last years BCC that was a legitimate 10f horse? Musket man?, Espoir City?, First Dude(maybe this year before retiring) Paddy O'Prado?, Quality Road(love him to death, and was injured during the race). The only 10f horses finished in the top 4. That Field was not as loaded as people would like to think, in regards to legitimate 10 f horses. But Zenyatta still had a tremendous record, and regardless if she raced vs fillies/Mares 95% of the time she still won 18 races in that regard. Hell of a record. · 599 days ago ·

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icyhotboo · @MarcelloMarocco: With all due respect, Sea The Stars, Conduit, Henry the Navigator, Fame and Glory did not show up, Zenyatta did. It's pretty odd how many horses didn't show up or retired rather than face her. As far as losing to Blame by eight inches that was one of the best races I've ever watched regardless of the out come. Running down a great closer in his own right (Blame) is no small accomplishment. Some trainers who feel she could run with the best ever are, Allen Jerkens, Nick Zito, Bob Baffert, John Nerud etc. As with all posts they tend to be very subjective so I believe in time her greatness will be more appreciated. Have a nice day. · 599 days ago ·

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CauseForConcern · Marcello, get your gender right. · 599 days ago ·

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MarcelloMarocco · Cause for Concern- What Gender would yo be refering too?.... When I said She it was Zenyatta I spoke of. Read more carefully. · 595 days ago ·

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MarcelloMarocco · Icy - Yes the horses I listed ran in the ARC, and BC Turf(conduit). These horses run 12f, not 10. Sea The stars beating Zenyatta would have proved nothing after the field he beat in the ARC. Not to mention that they don't run 10f on synthetics, nor do they run 10f period. 12f is the distance of preference. · 595 days ago ·

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MarcelloMarocco · They do run 10f, but 12f is the classic distance, and most of the Major races are mostly run at that distance · 595 days ago ·

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icyhotboo · @MarcelloMarocco : I don't need any lessons on horse racing especially as redundant as your are! · 595 days ago ·

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MarcelloMarocco · Icyhotboo- Ahhhh whats wrong?....hate hearing the truth?....redundent...Lol...hardly · 582 days ago ·

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MarcelloMarocco · I never new Correcting myself was considered be redundant?.... · 582 days ago ·

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cocoa2 · I am so evil · 29 days ago ·

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amino998 · Glad I missed it>>OK. move along people, nothing to see here>>move along :) · 29 days ago ·

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Twice Over

Twice Over has been retired and will stand stud at Klawervlei Stud in South Africa. Juddmonte Farms owner, Prince Khalid Abdullah, said in normal year that Twice Over would've been retired to stand for Juddmonte. But with the retirement of Frankel also this season, it's not a normal year. Twice Over won 4 G1 races during his career and was placed in a further 8 G1's. He won over $4 million in prize money and won or was placed 26 times in 33 career starts on 3 different continents. On a personal note, I've always thought Twice Over was a rock solid racehorse and about as thoroughly genuine as they come.

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yukichan · Very dependable and has earned his retirement. Good for SAF racing. Very nice farms there. · 158 days ago ·

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Frankel, on Top of the World

After Frankel rolled by Cirrus Des Aigles in the grade one Champion Stakes, extending his record to an unbeaten 14 for 14, there was only one thought in my mind… I had just witnessed the greatest horse to ever race of all time.Read More

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BrianZipse · The best of all-time is too hard for me to compare, but ... I have no doubt that he is one of the best I've ever seen in 40 years of watching the races. · 209 days ago ·

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DanMunn1 · Great article but I'm baffled by the comment about the 'clueless ride' on Bullet Train? It was one of the smartest pieces of riding I've seen! Frankel misses the beat, Ian Mongon drops back to keep in touch as planned? · 209 days ago ·

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DeadHeat · Dan, I say that because I feel he stayed back way too long. Bullet Train is a pacemaker, would that mean his job is to make sure Frankel gets a good pace to run at, especially after the break left him behind Cirrus Des Aigles? I can understand staying back for a bit to make sure he's ok, but after that get up there and make things tough on the leaders like you're supposed to. That is where i got clueless from. Brian, you are no stranger to hard comparisons with your Star of the Week. I figured I'd bite the bullet this time :) · 209 days ago ·

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LAZMANNICK · Really? And of course you have seen so many. Not to take away from his brilliance, but I think that is quite a stretch, in fact, not really worth arguing about. And that “clueless ride” as you so aptly put it on Bullet Train. Maybe you should have listened to the commentator during the running of the race. Bullet Train's sole purpose was to "drag Frankel along" as he put it. To me that doesn’t define “rabbit”. It’s more like a NASCAR strategy where teams race and one sets it up for another. Of course Frankel didn’t need any help. I don’t think he ever did and I’m glad his break was slow and he more or less did it on his own. Frankel! Great horse yes. Greatest of all time? Whatever you think. · 209 days ago ·

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DeadHeat · Laz, I have watched enough to formulate an opinion, and i just gave over 1000 words of facts to back it up. Please, if you'd like to slam, give us your top horse and why? If you can't walk the walk, then don't talk the talk. Also, I'm not the only one with that opinion of the ride on Bullet Train, there were also commentators who shared that same opinion. · 209 days ago ·

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DanMunn1 · Dani. Race tactics and planning, as confirmed on course by connections were not to make it a testing gallop. It was to assist with the settling of Frankel. This is why he's been the 'tow' for all of the racecourse gallops too, not to make a testing gallop as Frankel, in honesty, was the most dubious stayer of the pack over 10f. · 209 days ago ·

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cocoa2 · Okay, I'll take a stab here, dani. Would you like for me to argue against your claim with Frankel as the best ever with Dubai Millenium, Ribot, Shergar, Man O' War, Kelso, Brigadier Gerard, or Ruffian? · 209 days ago ·

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cocoa2 · If you want I'll take Frankel and Dr. Fager for best miler of all time? · 209 days ago ·

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AndyScoggin · If Frankel is the best horse in the world, I don't think there needed to be a lot of worry about the pace or the condition of the turf. Outstanding horses find ways to win races. · 209 days ago ·

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DeadHeat · Dan, while I understand that, after he noticed Frankel didn't need his assistance he should have gone about his own business, and he did. And to watch the race, once Bullet Train did move to the front he did indeed make the pace quicken, so the comment about not making the pace a testing gallop would have seemed to have gone out the window. It was an indecisive ride. Either stay back, like the connections apperently wanted, or go up and press the pace like the term pace maker would imply. You also say Frankel was questionable at that distance...How? He had won going 10.5 furlongs in his last race and won by open lengths. That would have taken care of the question mark hanging over the "can he get the distance?" question. · 209 days ago ·

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cocoa2 · Andy, Sysonby and Man O' War and Native Dancer would have to disagree on that one. lol. But I do agree that outstanding horses do find ways to win that other horses simply cannot. RA for example, those fractions in the Haskell(?) were like a 5f sprint. · 209 days ago ·

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DanMunn1 · Dani. I said most dubious stayer of the pack. All of the other rivals had proven their stamina on more than one occasion over 10f on that kind of ground. To be honest, I heard the tactics from the connections themselves and, to be honest, I'm not getting into an argument with someone less than 24hrs after I witnessed the greatest race of my life as it'll spoil it so I'll leave you to it. · 209 days ago ·

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GregRiessland · frankel is the best as it showed he can win from anyway where. he will crush you from anywhere on the track. it was great watching all his races, fantastic horse · 209 days ago ·

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SteveHerron · Declaring Frankel the greatest of all time seems to be driven more by emotion rather than historical perspective. While I have no problem saying he's one of the best European runners of all time, let's not forget he's only run 14 races, with an average of 4.3 races per year. Not to mention that Frankel never once faced his elders without the help of the hopeless pacemaker, Bullet Train. I don't doubt Frankel is a freak and will always have a place in history as one of the best, but I feel it's a bit of a double standard when some are flabbergasted when they hear people even suggest that Zenyatta was the greatest female racehorse in history, while at the same time having absolutely no doubt Frankel deserves the #1 spot, despite not having even run in the most prestigious race in Europe, the Arc D’Triomphe. I love Frankel, but there are simply too many other great horses in history for me to say he is without a doubt the best ever. · 209 days ago ·

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LAZMANNICK · I don’t recall slamming your piece Dead-Heat. My bad. I just had the audacity of not agreeing with it. I agree that Frankel is brilliant, but to call him the best ever is definitely a stretch. He never faced a Sea Bird, Nijinsky, Ribot, Mill Reef, Alleged, Brigadier Gerard, Miesque, and more recently Zarkava and Sea the Stars, etc. and etc.; and that’s just confining it to some of the great European horses. Forget about the Orient and to some degree the Middle-East. And I won’t even bother bringing up American dirt horses like Citation, Seattle Slew, etc., or American horses that were proficient on turf into the conversation like Secretariat, Kelso, Lure, Dr. Fager and many more. I would love to see how Frankel would have stacked up against Round Table, a horse that won at 9 different distances between 6F and 13F and who carried weights ranging from 130 to 136 lbs. to victory 16 times, and every time giving away large spreads of weight. He won 14 of 16 career turf races, losing one when he finished last after sustaining and injury, and the United Nations Hdcp by a half-length when giving the winner 17 lbs (130 to 113) and breaking the track record by a full second to boot. Frankel never really gave weight in his career. He might have carried heavy weights at times, but so did his main competitors. As for distances, the great filly Zarkava was a top miler and also won two 12F races including the Arc, both those wins at three and both against older horses. She won all her races coming from behind with a whirlwind finish, and won them easily in margins from 2 to 3 lengths, which was all she needed to do to show her dominance. STS won in multiple distances ranging from 7F to 12F and four times as a three year old defeated the best older horses in Europe, including Conduit, a two time BC Turf winner and IMO a much better horse than SN Abby. Maybe you forgot, or maybe you aren’t really aware of the dominance of unbeaten Ribot a two-time Arc winner; Nijinsky’s great TC run; Brigadier Gerard’s incredible 17 wins in 18 starts, his only loss when Roberto ran a race of a lifetime; Alleged’s 9 wins in 10 starts, 6 of them at 12F; Sea Bird absolutely humbling one of the deepest Arc fields of all time; Mill Reef, like Brigadier Gerard, winning important races in distances from 6F to 12F during his stellar career, one of those losses to Brigadier Gerard. I could go on and fill several pages about these great horse’s accomplishments and then make a comparison to Frankel’s career and the quality of many of the horses that he faced and compare it to the quality of many of the horses that they faced, but I have a feeling it would be lost on you. · 209 days ago ·

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rafirox · Obviously Dani is clueless about this subject. Bullet Train was ridden great yesterday. The point was, he didn't want to go out up front and kill Bullet Train, then the other pace maker would slow the race down. Bullet Train waited, applying pressure. Then, he quickened up the pace in the middle of the race to tire the other one out. · 209 days ago ·

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DeadHeat · Laz, if you aren't willing to stick your neck out and pick one horse, before picking apart another then you have no right to pick. Disagree if you will, but at least i picked one horse, and backed it up. You say he never faced a some of the greats...Canford Cliffs beat Goldikova, one of the most well respected milers in Europe, Immortal Verse did the same and he beat that one as well. If you wish to slam his competition, then first look at who he beat. Three champions are there, and many multiple groupe one winners. Also, many of those greats never faced the likes of the others you listed. Double standard there. Zarkava, while versatile, never raced under a mile nor past three. You mention triple crown runs, that's great and brilliant stretch of running, Frankel was brilliant his whole career. Many would argue that Cirrus Des Aigles ran a race of a lifetime, Frankel won. Great horses win, and he won no matter what, he was brilliant no matter what, and did it over a span of 3 seasons. These horses are great, but they had their flaws. Frankel had none. · 209 days ago ·

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cocoa2 · Dani I let you PICK a horse and you still won't debate with me. And aren't you the writer of dead heat DEBATES? · 209 days ago ·

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cocoa2 · It is important to remember how Frankel's biggest loss was when the field got away from him. Bullet Train did not need to act as a rabbit, he was to act like a teacher and keep little nutty Frankel out of his own whackjob mind. · 209 days ago ·

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DeadHeat · Cocoa, pick any horse you want. Not really fair for me to pick one. You want to pick one of the ones you listed at random, and i'll debate it with you, it could be fun ;) At three i might agree with your last statement, but at four, I don't think Frankel ever really needed Bullet Train. His unflappable attitude in the Champion demonstrates that. · 209 days ago ·

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cocoa2 · The good doctor might be a good candidate but I think I'll go with Ribot. EVERY horse is governed by pace. Some, like Ruffian, were not governed as much as a horse such as Dr. Fager when he faced the rabbit in the 67(?) woodward. · 209 days ago ·

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LAZMANNICK · Dani, first of all I didn’t pick apart Frankel so maybe instead of getting all hot headed and uptight and self-righteous because someone (of many) doesn’t happen to agree with you, you should actually try to comprehend what was written. I simply stated that Frankel isn’t, nor will he ever be, the best ever. That’s my opinion and I hope that like you I’m allowed to have one. As far as picking a horse, I thought I just picked a dozen or so. In fact I will go as far to say that Frankel would have met his match with Round Table alone. Round Table ran during four years; was a top rated three year old in what was arguably the deepest American three year old dirt crop ever; ran 66 times in his career and often ran three and sometimes four races in a single month against the top competition in N/A; won at multiple distances from 6F to 13F; won 16 races carrying 130 to 136 lbs. and always gave large amounts of weight; 16 times ran the fastest three year time for various distances at different tracks; on dirt won a 10F Hollywood Gold Cup at three in 1.58.3/5 (one of four sub 2 minute 10F races on dirt in his career); a mile on dirt in 1.33 2/5 while carrying 130 lbs., 9F in 1.46 4/5 carrying 130 lbs.; and on turf won at 9F in 1.47 1/5 carrying 132 lbs. and 10F in 1.58 2/5 carrying 132 lbs. Arguably he was the best American Turf Horse all time and it’s a shame that he never got the chance to run in Europe. And yet as good as Round Table was, there are many N/A horses rated well ahead of him, though if the rating was based on turf racing alone he would have been included among the best with Secretariat, Kelso, Fort Marcy and Dr. Fager, all of which proved their prowess on dirt, but in their limited starts on turf also showed their brilliance. As for Frankel and the so called incomperable competition that he has faced let’s see: Slim Shadey won a G2 in N/A and was dusted by Little Mike and Acclamation in G1 races and Bourbon Bay in a G2; Treasure Beach is a nice horse but didn’t Point of Entry just run away from him in the Turf Classic and I don’t hear where that one is included in the discussion as best ever; Dream Ahead (a US bred) improved greatly after Frankel; Farhh who finished second to Frankel twice in a row and both at equal weights has still never won a G1 race. As of this writing he won 3 of 8 starts. Cirrus Des Aigles has won 16 and lost TWENTY-NINE of his lifetime starts. A couple of starts ago he wasn’t even close to Golden Lilac (the best that one has beaten was Galikova who in turn beat her, and Galikova was no match for Danedream, another that Frankel never faced); and Planteur, a single G1 winner. Excelebration is a good miler but certainly no better than Canford Cliffs, Miesque, or even Goldikova. The best horse he has beaten appears to be Cityscape, yesterday, and a few weeks back Wise Dan humbled that one into defeat and won with much to spare. Nathanial is a very good horse, but I don’t think he is the horse he was last year, certainly not in the final furlong. St. Nicholas Abby has won a single race this year and as has often been stated is at his best at 12F (he faced Frankel at 10F though I don’t think he would beat Frankel at 12F either) a distance that Frankel has never tried, not that I’m holding that against him because I’m not. As for SNA’s BC Turf win, Conduit beat tougher fields during both his wins and Conduit was definitely no match for Sea The Stars. To put it bluntly, Frankel never met the quality of horses that I stated in my previous post and I guarantee, and so will many others, that he would never dominate any of them, even if he was good enough to win a few races against them, the way he dominates the bunch he has faced in his career. · 209 days ago ·

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Buckpasser · Frankel is a great horse and well deserving of the accolades. The best ever in Europe, I would have to give that to Ribot. The best Euro I ever saw race would have to be Brigadier Gerrard. Best American horse is one of the ones I saw race multiple times and that would Kelso. · 209 days ago ·

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DeadHeat · cocoa, looking at their records and comparing, I have to say, the two horses strike me as very similar. Both top two year olds, both top three year olds and both dominant older horses. It would seem to me Ribot was race at distances, where Frankel remained at a mile for most of his career. Both could do short, both could also stretch out, both could run over any kind of conditions as well. Both also had the brilliance factor. After looking at his record, I would not argue with anyone who wished to pick Ribot as the best. I personally would still choose Frankel, and in this case one could say that it is more of a bias, since I was able to witness him in action and was not Ribot. However, I would still not argue with one who would call Ribot the best of all time. Laz, you are bias and twist the facts to suite you. If I remember correctly, when comparing Zapper and Curlin's competition, you noted how many wonderous horse's Zapper faced, but failed to mention that most of the horses you listed only reached their full peak after they met Zapper. However, here you pick out Dream Ahead, saying he became much better after facing Frankel. You also choose to slam Cirrus, tell me, Laz, what is that horse's recent form? What is his form over soft ground? I'll save you the time, his recent for is a romping win in his last start and he is know to relish, yes, relish soft going. Again, don't pick and choose facts. No need to act like a politician. Excelebration, if not for Frankel would be one of the most dominant milers in Europe as of now. I seriously doubt anyone on either side of the pond would deny that, so slandering him, especially after the QEII win, won't get you anywhere. You say Nathaniel is not the same horse, really? A grade one winner this year, second twice behind last year's Arc winner and the outstanding filly Snow Fairy. His only other start was a third in the champion behind the Frankel and the race's defendig champion. Hardly seems like he has taken a drop in form. Also you compare him to Round Table. Sorry, but it is no secret that American tracks are firmer, faster, and flater, meaning you will most likely see faster times on our side of the pond. So listing times, and trying to use them to prove dominance, is reaching just a bit. At the conclusion of this, I think it's very clear of your bias against Frankel, for he clearly did face quality horses throughout his entire career, a fact you refuse to acknowledge. However, the great thing about America is that you can have your opinion and you have the right to choose to ignore facts. Have a good night Laz. · 209 days ago ·

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LAZMANNICK · Dani. Sorry. I don’t twist the facts, I state them. For instance, when Saint Liam ran that head-to-head Woodward against Ghostzapper, it’s true, he still wasn’t a G1 winner. That would come immediately after. However, with the possible exception of the Whitney, in which he finished second to Commentator the following year, the race he ran that day against Ghostzapper was as good or better than any race he would subsequently run during the remainder of his career and that includes wins in the Clark, Donn, Foster, Woodward and BCC. That day he ran on the lead with lights out fractions of 45 3/5, 1.08 3/5, 1.33 1/5 and finished in 1.46 1/5 and he did it while carrying 126 lbs. That performance wasn’t a fluke. It was because he was good with a capital G. Roses in May had already won a Whitney and in his final two races after the BCC loss to GZ would finish 2nd in that Donn to St. Liam and then win the World Cup. Pleasantly Perfect had already won a Pacific Classic, Dubai World Cup and BCC before being soundly defeated by Ghostzapper. Where’s the bias? Here’s a bias though. When Zenyatta defeated Twice Over the feeling was so what, Twice Over wasn’t all that much to begin with, and yet when Frankel defeats him he defeated a really good horse. Here’s another. Dream Ahead, whom Frankel defeated in 2011, was a multi G1 winner of two races before they met and I believe three after. However, he never won a G1 past 7F his absolute limit (they never even entered him in a longer race). The majority of his wins were at 6F and two at 7F, not at a mile. And yes, he was much better after Frankel. He defeated Goldikova in his final start. I doubt very much he would have even warmed her up before he faced Frankel. As for Cirrus and any advantage he was supposed to have because of the soft turf. It seems to me that Frankel won two races this year on turf listed as yielding including the Queen Anne Stakes when he defeated Excelebration by 11 lengths. Yielding is considered slower and deeper than soft. So tell me, who had the advantage? As for Nathanial. He has all of a SINGLE win this year period. News flash. Two other horses have defeated him besides Frankel. Maybe you should include them in your analysis for the Best Ever. As for Round Table, I only mentioned his fast times to show his quality and ability to run on different surfaces and at different distances and while carrying heavy weights and giving a lot of weight to his opponents, and this at a particular time in America when race surfaces weren’t all that fast, certainly nowhere near as fast as they are now. He also ran and won on various types of off tracks. I know that in Euro racing times aren’t important and I’m sure that if Frankel would have run on fast turf course without hills he would have run some really fast times too. I also mentioned Round Table because he ran 66 times over four years, came back after a bad leg injury, gave vast advantages to his competitors race in and race out, had a stellar record and yet wasn’t even in the top 16 in the Bloodhorse top 100. I could still name 10 European horses that I would rate ahead of Frankel, but that would be a waste of my time. I will state that IMO Frankel is an all-time great, one of many all-time greats, not just a few all-time greats. But to say he’s better than Ribot, for instance, is like you said, your opinion. Here’s an analogy for his second Arc win: Longchamp - 2,400m WON - cantered to victory by an official 6 lengths, never off the bit at any time from Talgo (horse) in second, beating a field consisting of the English Oaks winner, French Oaks winner, two Irish Derby winners, Grand Prix de Paris winner, French St Leger winner, Laurel Invitational winner and the runner up in the Belmont Stakes. Photographs suggest that the winning margin was more like eight and a half lengths. Frankel never faced a deep field like that. · 209 days ago ·

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travel_vic · EVER? ALL time? surely you jest. the breed has been around, officially since about 1750, and it ALL THAT TIME this one is BEST? Hogwash · 209 days ago ·

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icyhotboo · LAZMANNICK, Buckpasser, travel_vic, footlick, Mary Z, zxswordxz, cocoa2, and others who don't come to mind right now but are here, thank you for the balance, objectivity and facts you provide on this sight which also gives me the luxury of sitting back and reading a thread with thorough enjoyment, and many times amusement. Dani, I realize you're involved in this sport and have first hand knowledge of thoroughbred's and as you've stated have studied racing for 10 years. However some points of view I have. The above mentioned people along with others have centuries of both first hand knowledge and study. To keep this short the most important aspect of any argument you take part in (and you can look through your comments) is you have never felt you were in error on a single point, let alone any argument. If you really want intelligent converstation I suggest in all good faith you entertain the possiblity you're not infallable. I say this because you have great potential as a contributor but not with the absolute "need to be right" attitude which will be your undoing. If I didn't think you were worth it I wouldn't waste my time, but I do, so I hope you take this as constructive. Have a nice evening. · 208 days ago ·

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railbird33 · Greatest horse ever,,, always brings out the best comments on this site. One piece of information I would like to see, did Frankel set any stakes or track records in his fourteen wins. ?? That's the true test of the greatest, not beating the other horses in the gate IMO · 208 days ago ·

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travel_vic · If your horse blows away field after field, WHY push him to gain some track record. There is no bonus money for that. · 208 days ago ·

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travel_vic · Test of greatness are all about ADAPTATION and that often is overcoming things normally a handicap: weight carrying, running in differeing styles over differing surfaces, in all weather, with different riders, and against the best. Take a horse like JOhn Henry: longevity, weight carrying, took on all comers on both surfaces for a LONG time. Those accumulative accolades spell champion. · 208 days ago ·

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travel_vic · Or, find a horse that just changes the history of the game with a uniqueness heretofore never seen: Speed Fager, overcoming racing style: Zenyatta, PURE speed at a distance too; Secretariat. These were not perfect but so unique that they deserve the title of immortals in racing. · 208 days ago ·

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dani.pugh · railbird, that is by far the worst test. A record is nice to have, but a lot of things can go into times, one of the biggest being the track. Quality Road set a record in the Florida Derby, but it was his Donn record i respect, since his FD record came over a very souped up track. Position and pace can also play a huge roll in that. If the pace is slow, you most likely won't see a closer rushing up and getting a record. Sometimes even when the pace is quick a closer may not set a record due to a pace meltdown. Brilliance, body of work, longevity, and versatility are all much better ways to assess a horse's greatness. · 208 days ago ·

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Mary Z. · Thanks, icy. I enjoy your comments, too. Tim, don't feel left out :) · 208 days ago ·

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footlick · Thanks icy. It is nice to be included in that group. You bring alot to the table also, don't forget. I especially appreciate you knowledge on standardbreds. · 208 days ago ·

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travel_vic · COcoa again shows his ignornace. NOT every horse is governed by pace. Affirmed and Fager WERE the pace and evey one else reacted to them · 208 days ago ·

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railbird33 · As T_V and others have pointed out, greatness doesn't have a clear measure; wins, times, earnings, competiton, endurance, can all figure into the mix. In my 40 + years as a handicapper and fan, I know I've missed 90% of the great ones. · 208 days ago ·

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Buckpasser · Icy. Very flattered to be included in such a group. Always love hearing from a fellow harness fan and well as someone who knows betting and thoroughbred racing as well as you do. · 208 days ago ·

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bernardini3 · Frankel is obviously an amazing horse which can be and should be understood by all horsemen. But there is no way I could possibly classify Frankel ast he greatest horse of all time. He never ventured from where he was comfortable to challenge the champions of America. Now we'll never know how good he truly was... · 208 days ago ·

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bernardini3 · Frankel is obviously an amazing horse which can be and should be understood by all horsemen. But there is no way I could possibly classify Frankel ast he greatest horse of all time. He never ventured from where he was comfortable to challenge the champions of America. Now we'll never know how good he truly was... · 208 days ago ·

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dani.pugh · Bernardini, how often do American champions travel to Europe? almost never. enough with the double standards. · 208 days ago ·

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cocoa2 · Travel_vic again shows his ignorance. Dr. Fager was beat by 15 lengths due to him being governed by pace. Affirmed was also governed by pace. If he was pressed a closer could come and win. Ignorance, pure ignorance. · 208 days ago ·

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likin sparks · Good write up Laura and yes Frankel has been one of the greatest in modern times. · 208 days ago ·

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travel_vic · you made a blanket statement about ALL races are goverened ypace. NOT when a horse gets out front and dictates it to the entire field, they are not afffected by it. · 207 days ago ·

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freddycaple · Definitely a great. Say "all time" really is difficult when thinking about it over a span of time. So much changes over the years. I do believe he is one of the greatest though. derbydeals.com · 207 days ago ·

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likin sparks · One thing I really admire is that Frankel went all 14 with out any race day medication. Just shows that horses can be freaks without doping. · 207 days ago ·

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travel_vic · There are many who believe Secretariat "couldn't have been so dominant" without drugs, but then they never stood next to him like I did, tiwce, and no different. · 207 days ago ·

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ILuvTurfRacing · I think it's really difficult to compare the all-time great horses across generations, but I agree with Brian Zipse. In my 30+ years now of following the sport Frankel is definitely among the very best horses I've ever seen!! I don't know that I can remember any other horse who's first big initial burst of speed when ask for run just left fields for dead the way Frankel's initial burst did. The "so-called" experts and racing fans alike will be debating for years to come whether Frankel was the greatest of all time or not? Regardless of whether you feel he was or wasn't? We're not likely to see another horse of his caliber for another 20 or 30 years, IMO. I think everyone would agree that Frankel was absolutely an amazing animal to watch on a racetrack!! · 207 days ago ·

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likin sparks · You know TV, many of us would envy that and just being able to see Secretariat or Frankel race live would be a life lasting memory. · 207 days ago ·

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travel_vic · ALL here, owe it to yourself to save your money, write the various farms in and around Lexington, and go there. GO THERE in November: not much going on, it is cold so many stay away. it is often just you and the stallion as it was for me an Alydar, Sect, Bid, Cougar, Ack Ack, Prospector, Tom Rolfe, In Reality, Dmascus, Polish Navy, Nijinsky, Ferdinand, Cox's Ridge, Slew, Slew O'Gold, Gato del Sol, Bodl Forbes,Exceller, ....when you are there by yourself, you "own" the place. Al the fams addresses are on line. Devil's Bag, Danzig etc all there to see one on one when I visited in November. · 207 days ago ·

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notobsessed · Great advice, tv! I'd much rather see them up close like that and plan on doing a farm tour in a coiuple of years. · 206 days ago ·

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notobsessed · right after I learn to type · 206 days ago ·

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Nathaniel eclipses rivals for sublime victory‏

Domination was reconfirmed on Saturday at Sandown Park as the in-form duo of John Gosden and William Buick notched up yet another top class success with their four year old son of Galileo, Nathaniel. Impressive in victory, Nathaniel was rumoured to have needed this run en route to defending his King...Read More

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BrianZipse · What a great return by Nathaniel. I thought Farhh was going to roll right on by. · 314 days ago ·

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MarcelloMarocco · Then he dodged the Juddmonte for The Irish Champions stakes........ · 232 days ago ·

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Frankel fires to seven length Juddmonte success‏

Could the 1 1/2 mile Prix de L'Arc de Triomphe be next for the world's best horse?Read More

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AndyScoggin · Running in the Arc is a win-win situation for Frankel. You can't sit at home an expect to be called the best. · 269 days ago ·

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likin sparks · Honestly I feel there isn't a turf race he can't win. · 269 days ago ·

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northport · I doubt it but it would be amazing if he did! · 269 days ago ·

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icyhotboo · They'll never run him against that German filly Danedream. And another one hits the sheds, and another one hits the sheds. Keep him away from that little filly or she'll break his heart. Obviously they agree. · 269 days ago ·

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footlick · everyone wanted him to stretch out. now he has and of course he is expected to do more because he will never do enough · 269 days ago ·

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zatt · He was a great two-year-old, and he has gotten much better each year. Today he is a monster! Wish I had been with you today, Dan! · 269 days ago ·

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footlick · icy- really? I think it might be the other way around. Nathaniel is not Frankel. She barely beat him. I like her a lot, but a filly would need to be extra exceptional, like a Dahlia or an Allez France. Not sure Danedream is at that level. · 269 days ago ·

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ILuvTurfRacing · I love the headline, but it's wishful thinking on Horseracingnation's part, as well as the few other thousand turf writers from around the world who within 5 minutes of Frankel dismantling Fahrr and St Nicholas Abbey by an easy 7 lengths at 10-1/2 f, started calling out for Frankel to be taken to Longchamp and let him take on the best of the best at 12f in this year's Arc. I don't think there's anyone who is or isn't a fan of Frankel that wouldn't love to see him tackle the Arc? But everyone closely involved with team Frankel, I.E., Sir Henry Cecil, Prince Khalid Abdullah, and Lord Teddy Grimthorpe, have all remained stead fast with the media that the plan for Frankel from day 1 of the 2012 season will not be changed. They're all 3 on record now as saying no Arc for Frankel, no Breeders Cup for Frankel. Frankel's last hurrah will be in the spot light of Champions Day at Ascot in October. Where Sir Henry Cecil has said repeatedly that Frankel will run his final race in the G1 Champion Stakes at Ascot that day, and will then be retired to stud. I'm assuming for Juddmonte Farms? Can't imagine Prince Khalid Abdullah letting Frankel get away from Juddmonte to go stand for any other stable with a breeding operation in the world. · 268 days ago ·

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DanMunn1 · They're not on records at all, ILuvTurfRacing. It's common guess that the QIPCO race will indeed be the last but Lord Grimthorpe was on UK TV tonight saying, and I quote, that 'Options will remains open. He's not in the Arc but the horse will tell us what he wants to do'. Sir Henry Cecil can barely speak at the moment and has not given comment onthe Arc · 268 days ago ·

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edgaropena · C'mon HRN quit it with the gossip, this ain't news. As ILuvTurfRacing stated, there will be no Arc. Does not matter if Frankel does not head to the Arc and whoever else needs to compete to further legitimize his awesome career. His Timeform rating @ Royal Ascot this year is the highest rating ever in their 64 year. So if you still think Frankel is not a freak e-mail Timeform and tell them their 64 year old system (which is likely before you were born) of rating horses is useless. · 268 days ago ·

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timgsmith10 · Although the Timeform is old and people like it .. It is just a number assigned to a horse.. The only true number that matters is wins... He should go in the arc.. · 268 days ago ·

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footlick · Dancing Brave went to the Arc and won even though it was farther than he wanted to go. Brigadier Gerard didn't go to the Arc and obviously it didn't hurt his reputation. I'd rather he go where they want to place him. As far as wins, Tim, he has 13, and he stretched out just as you asked. Now of course it isn't enough for people. There was a time that people would be grateful that a horse like Frankel was running. Now it is just wanting more and more and more. · 268 days ago ·

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timgsmith10 · I am grateful he is amazing no doubt that is the whole point... There are still feats to reach... Nathanial,Danedream,Orfevre,camelot etc... Why not proclaim you are entering the ARC send out a press release that anyone who thinks they have the best horse in the world be there or zip it... 13 Wins why not do 20.. add in dubai,Breeders cup arc whatever ..I am a Fan not an owner remember ? I want to see him take on orfevre at 1 and a half why shouldnt I want that? rambled i know sorry · 268 days ago ·

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LAZMANNICK · Tim I hope the Tooth Fairy has your correct address. Something tells me you're going to get a visit tonight. · 268 days ago ·

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footlick · because, tim, then it will be the Japan Cup and then the Dubai WC and on and on. If you look at the performances of common foes, Nathaniel is no contest. At 12 furlongs Danedream is strong, but she may not get to the same form she was in the Arc. We will see how Orfevre performs. But, obviously no amount of wins and races will be enough, and that to me is sad. · 268 days ago ·

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timgsmith10 · So by your own admission Danedream and Orfevre could potentially run with Frankel? I said State publically you are entering the Arc and call out the worlds best.. If no one shows so be it at least no one can say you did not try... Why is it sad to want to see the best vs the best? · 268 days ago ·

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timgsmith10 · HAHA you are so funny Laz .. get a life.. Frankel is 4 years old could easily race 3 more times this year.. WE ARE FANS... WE DONT CARE ABOUT BREEDING... I am aware that Frankel will retire after his next race but why does that mean I should be happy about it? I hope I get at least 5 bucks from the fairy tonight. · 268 days ago ·

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LAZMANNICK · Tim there's nothing wrong with wanting more. I totally agree with you in that respect, but I don't think we can expect to get more. BTW I'm betting you'll get at least a ten spot. · 268 days ago ·

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Mary Z. · That wasn't much of a testosterone fest. It rather fizzled. · 268 days ago ·

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Mary Z. · Kinda got me thinking of putting on wings, but charging the hubby. · 268 days ago ·

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footlick · Don;t put words In my mouth, tim. Danedream and Orfevre's best chance at even coming close to Frankel would be at 12 furlongs, as long as he could not get the distance. At 10.5f or shorter they are not in his league. So their ability to get 12 furlongs combined with Frankel maybe not being able to stay 12 furlongs might get him beat. But Frankel's inability to get the distance would be their only chance. If he can stay the distance they are outclassed. It is sad that no matter what he does you will keep demanding more and not enjoy, as you clearly don't. You have railed on him for his entire 3 and 4 yr old career, touting the 2 Dans as equals, etc, etc. And then making swipes that he is a turf horse. You do not appreciate, and a fan appreciates. Everything is a demand for more. But I don't hear those demands for other horses. Well, you demanded he run 10 furlongs, and he demolished a field at 10.5 furlongs. And you proved that it wasn't enough. And you are wrong. A fan cares about breeding, because without breeding there will be no horses. He has run 3 full seasons. Rail about all the horses being retired in this country prematurely. Don;t rail on about Frankel. He did what you demanded and passed the test easily. Maybe you should start demanding that · 268 days ago ·

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footlick · Wise Dan go to the Arc or the Champions and challenge him. Then we can see if Wise Dan would defeat Frankel. · 268 days ago ·

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footlick · In fact I like the idea of Wise Dan running in the Arc. That would be a real test for America's best horse. · 268 days ago ·

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footlick · Let the best run against the best. · 268 days ago ·

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likin sparks · It would have been something to see Frankel and So You Think race and wouldn't matter who would win, just to see the two run on the same track would be awesome. · 268 days ago ·

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loran53@hotmail.com · Lazmannick, that sounded like a threat. In order for Tim to be visited by the Tooth Fairy he has to lose a tooth- or have it knocked out. · 268 days ago ·

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LAZMANNICK · loran53....I imagine that Tim still has all his teeth. Maybe he stuffs a fake one under his pillow every night hoping for the best. · 268 days ago ·

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loran53@hotmail.com · I doubt the tooth fairy would fall for it. But $5-$10 for a tooth! It's amazing how inflation has jacked up the price. I only used to get a quarter. · 267 days ago ·

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footlick · you thought you hit the goldmine if you got 50 cents.... · 267 days ago ·

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icyhotboo · "Please Sir, May I Have Some More? In a scene from the Dickens novel, Oliver Twist, the boy asks for a second helping of porridge. "Please Sir, may I have some more?" he asks in a sweet English accent. "MOOORRRE?!" shouts the man in charge. "MOOOOORRRRE?!? The boy knows the answer to the question, and runs. He was lucky to get what he got." It would seem we haven't come far at all. · 267 days ago ·

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LAZMANNICK · Loran you still get a quarter don't you? · 267 days ago ·

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LAZMANNICK · Icy that sounds like a chapter from that old degenerate Captain Highliner’s novel, “Do you want to go to sea Billy?” · 267 days ago ·

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icyhotboo · "Frankel receives lofty 140 ranking again" I do appreciate this horse and my only fuss is wanting to see him run more. I still haven't gotten over Secretariat being retired as a 3yo. The thing is I can appreciate the view point of the owner when you have a horse with a conservative value of 170 million dollars you want to start getting a return on investment. Then again how much money does a person need, let him run Prince. · 267 days ago ·

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icyhotboo · Is that the 2nd or 3rd 140+, according to Brisnet it's the 2nd but I thought I remembered a 142 and 147 before this 140 · 267 days ago ·

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loran53@hotmail.com · No Laz, I still lose a tooth now and then but the Tooth Fairy has forgotten me. Icy, I haven't gotten over Secretariat retiring at 3 either. I would like to see Frankel race another year. Horses like that come along once in a blue moon. · 267 days ago ·

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ruffian75 · loran53: Wow, I didn't recall Secretariat retiring at three. I thought he ran as a 4-year-old. I guess I thought his age was 4 because he ran six more times after winning the Belmont. It's not often that a horse runs in the Belmont, and then runs six more times in his/her 3-year-old campaign. · 267 days ago ·

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loran53@hotmail.com · It was a lot more common then, Ruffian. Yeah, you never see it now. I think we're getting close to the point where the voters for HOY will have to choose between horses that have only had 2 or 3 starts for the year. · 267 days ago ·

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LAZMANNICK · Sometimes it’s not the number of races, but the number of years that a horse has been in training. Frankel is in his third year of competing and that can be tough mentally on a horse and sometimes make them dull and uninterested. Secretariat raced two years, the Bid, Slew, Affirmed and many others raced until four. The days of Kelso and his 8 year career are long gone, at least for quality horses that aren’t geldings. To me, Frankel is like Ghostzapper. Wowed by their performances, waiting patiently for their next race, and then before you know it, they’re gone. At least we have YouTube. · 267 days ago ·

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footlick · I wasn't going to post anymore, but just to clear up the confusion for icy, this is the second consecutive 140 Racing Post rating for Frankel. It is a different rating system than Timeform. · 267 days ago ·

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icyhotboo · ty footlick, Brisnet was right then. I misunderstood. I know I make a fuss like a child"but I want more." I don't think I'll see another like him, fitting he was named Frankel. A muslim naming the horse of a generation after a jew, maybe there is hope. · 267 days ago ·

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TimSmith · Im with icy.. I selfishly want to see more. · 267 days ago ·

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TimSmith · PS the tooth is under the pillow , I really hope the fairy comes. · 267 days ago ·

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Mary Z. · She requires a magic wand to do that. · 267 days ago ·

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footlick · I just wanted you to know that Bris was quoting Racing Post ratings. Others are using Timeform and there are the IWR ratings also. As far as anything else about the subject of Frankel, I have no comment anymore. · 267 days ago ·

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Mary Z. · For the moment. But may I add, Frankel, W.I.N.Z. He's Frankel. · 267 days ago ·

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TimSmith · ARC why not? for me. come on · 267 days ago ·

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footlick · Mary Z.- you always put a smile on my face ;P · 267 days ago ·

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Mary Z. · ;) I giggle at your sometimes bad language, footy. I enjoy many of your comments--all of the ones I agree with, LOL. · 267 days ago ·

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ILuvTurfRacing · I don't profess to know a hell of a lot? But this much I do know. Frankel handled 10-1/2f at York with as much ease as he's handled 8f everywhere else he's been. He disposed of two 130 Timeform rated horses in Fahrr and St Nicholas Abbey by an easy 7 furlongs with contempt. What I saw out of Frankel at York at that distance makes me feel confident in saying that even if the Juddmonte International had been ran at 12f instead of 10-1/2f, Frankel would've still had a minimum of 4 to 5 lengths on a 2-time G1 Coronation Cup and G1 BC Turf winner, IMO. Short of a British SAS sniper popping up and plugging Frankel the next time he pops out of the starting gate, there's not a doubt in my mind that Frankel retires undefeated, and I don't care if he goes to the Arc De Triomphe over 12f at Longchamp? Or the Champion Stakes over 10f at Ascot? Tom Queally proved once and for all at York that this beast can be ridden with restraint early on in the race and still produce that devasting turn of foot when it's called on!! · 266 days ago ·

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loran53@hotmail.com · A few days ago I posted that horses like Frankel come along once in a blue moon. I just found out that there's a blue moon Aug 31st! · 264 days ago ·

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Mary Z. · Looking forward to it for months now, loran. 5 months. · 264 days ago ·

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loran53@hotmail.com · Dare I ask why? · 264 days ago ·

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Mary Z. · Thinkin' it fits the timeline given 5 months ago. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qXIfK4iJg8 · 264 days ago ·

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loran53@hotmail.com · Beautiful song but what timeline? · 264 days ago ·

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likin sparks · I don't follow the Euro racing to much but would like to know when Frankel may return to action? · 264 days ago ·

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MarcelloMarocco · So I guess Sir henry's Cancer and his inability to travel is why they kept Frankel in england and not headed for France. give Sir Henry a break. Champions Stakes is just fine. Where are all the top 10f horses over there dodging him like at York?. The Champions will be a sham of a field because regardless of where Frankel runs, the others will run to the other race. He goes to the ARC the others will run The Champions, and Japan Cup, if he goes to the Champions....everyone else runs for the ARC. · 232 days ago ·

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Frankel locks horns with St Nicholas Abbey‏

On Wednesday, Sir Henry Cecil's exceptional four year old colt, Frankel, bids to further enhance his reputation in his inaugural attempt at the ten furlongs trip in the Juddmonte International.Read More

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UnionRagsRules · Wow... Frankel is getting more and more compition! · 271 days ago ·

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BrianZipse · Let's see what the great horse can do a quarter mile further than he's ever been before! · 271 days ago ·

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cocoa2 · This will be tough. Not only is he going farther than before but he is also facing a monster in St. Nicholas Abbey. It'll be a lot, watch for a late scratch. · 271 days ago ·

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edgaropena · 2 errors in this Article: 1) St. Nicholas Abbey lost to Cirrus de Aigles in the 2012 Dubai Sheema Classic, not 2011 2) It is actually around 10.5 (10fur +88yards), not 10 furs. · 271 days ago ·

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NickGunritz · Frankel will win with ease like usual. · 271 days ago ·

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edgaropena · Oh, I forgot to say. Frankel will win and make Sir Henry Cecil and Bobby Frankel proud. His timeform of 147 is no joke. · 271 days ago ·

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DanMunn1 · Glad to see you enjoyed the article, Edgar ;) · 271 days ago ·

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rafirox · This is going to be tough for Frankel. He will go way further than ever before, and face TOUGHER horses than ever. I'm not a BIG fan of euro racing, although I do believe Twice Over, Farhh, and St. Nicholas Abbey are great horses. I'm not saying Frankel won't win, but I don't think he'll win with ease. · 271 days ago ·

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MuchoMachoGirl · Nathaniel not in? · 271 days ago ·

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northport · no nathaniel, gosden opting to send him irish champion stakes next month. · 271 days ago ·

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yukichan · I actually think his competition will come from Planteur, who is most definitely a 10F type, and who has defeated the likes of Cirrus des Aigles and Cape Blanco. And he is coming off a freshening. I am not so sure St. Nick will relish the 1 1/4 (and 88 yds), even with the pacesetters. Frankel continues to bring his own pacesetter in Bullet Train anyway. Cecil has been targeting this specific race, and I do not see Frankel losing. · 271 days ago ·

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Mary Z. · I've been saying for over a year that Frankel could get this distance, so I'm sticking with him in his first 10f test. · 271 days ago ·

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AmbitiousD · Im curious to know what odds Frankel will go off at. · 271 days ago ·

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ILuvTurfRacing · The stamina question of whether Frankel will stay further than a mile is getting ready to be answered on Wednesday in the G1 Juddmonte International Stakes at York over 10f. Personally, I think Frankel will stay 10 or even 10-1/2f standing on his head. I'm a big fan of St Nicholas Abbey, also. But not at this trip. I think 12f is a minimum trip for SNA nowadays. But times SNA has raced at 10f in Ireland, he's been defeated by horses far inferior to himself. I think Planteur at his best could be the biggest threat, and I could possibly see Farhh closing the gap a little bit from what Frankel put between them in the G1 Sussex Stakes recently at a mile. But here's the thing, if stamina really doesn't turn out to be an issue for Frankel, and he's still able to show that blistering turn of foot he has at the end of 10f with the same level of devastation that he's shown it over a mile, than who the hell is honestly ever gone catch this beast? If Frankel handles 10f as easily as I'm predicting he will, he'll blow apart the middle distance division with however many races are left in his career with the same ease he's blown apart the mile division. But that's only one man's opinion. · 271 days ago ·

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likin sparks · This race should be no more than a jog in the park, hitting the 2 mile mark would concern me because he may start to tire, just a little. · 271 days ago ·

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timgsmith10 · Thank god he is moving on to 10+ !! this makes me happy. · 270 days ago ·

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travel_vic · EVEN in Europe, pace will make the race, THAT IS if anyone can go with this one late. BUT at the distance that is a real possibility · 270 days ago ·

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Mr. Thirsty · Does anyone know who won or what time the race starts US Eastern time? · 269 days ago ·

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notobsessed · I think it is 9:45 eastern · 269 days ago ·

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MattBernier · 8 minutes to post EST. · 269 days ago ·

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icyhotboo · 10:45EST · 269 days ago ·

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icyhotboo · 3 wt 7 wt 246 wt 246 super · 269 days ago ·

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likin sparks · Frankel, "My God what a performance" is right Ms Commentator! I guess the 2 mile morning gallops makes this race just a drop int he bucket for him. Please Sir Cecil send him to the BC, pweese. · 269 days ago ·

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Mary Z. · Beautiful. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mr_ChX6Jv4s · 269 days ago ·

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So close yet so Farhh‏

The prospect of So You Think returning to the scene of one of his greatest triumphs for a scintillating final bow was a tantalising proposition for Sandown Park and the thousands of racegoers heading towards the Esher track for Saturday's renewal of the Coral-Eclipse. However, Saturday will now be a...Read More

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yukichan · Indeed, the Coral-Eclipse looks to be very interesting. It's been noted that no horse over the age of 6 has won this in last 100 years, so that stat would rule out Twice Over, Cityscape, City Style and Sri Putra. Nathaniel won't run if too course comes up too firm; Cogito won't go if there's any cut to the ground. The race and course looks to be shaping up for Farhh, plus he was supplemented. However, I would not dismiss Bonfire, who gets a 10 lbs advantage. · 316 days ago ·

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Dubai winners clash in Coral Eclipse

While So You Think was removed from Coral Eclipse consideration due to lameness, a stellar field of ten were declared for Saturday’s race at Sandown. Dubai World Cup winner Monterosso will make his first European start since August 2010 and his first since his win in the world’s richest race, one of...Read More

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Mickdaam in good order with Fahey, goes Thursday

Winner of the Al Bastakiya, and fourth in the UAE Derby (G2), Mickdaam is now with Richard Fahey in the UK and will get ten furlongs in Thursday’s Tattersalls Millions Trophy at Newmarket. A field of 14 has been assembled, including our original pick for the UAE Derby, Entifaadha, who was second in ...Read More

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Twice Over

I laugh at those who say Zenyatta never beat any quality horses! Twice Over is as classy as they come!

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timgsmith10 · Give it up. · 639 days ago ·

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icyhotboo · stevebiscuit: Tim and I don't agree often but "Give it up" · 639 days ago ·

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CauseForConcern · For the intervention of argument, stevebiscuit, you rock!!!! · 639 days ago ·

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icyhotboo · Seems you showed up late for the war stevebiscuit. You'll have to wait for another as we need to gather our thrength for the next and this aint it. · 639 days ago ·

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stevebiscuit · "Give it up"? Never!!!!! · 634 days ago ·

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CraigBradshaw · sb......you are absolutely correct! TO was another world class horse that zen blew by in the bcc09!!!! · 600 days ago ·

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medlocke · @stevebiscuit, Just this morning I watched an interview with Henry Cecil on Racing Post as they were showing Frankel, Twice Over, and Midday's workouts for the Champions Day card coming up at Ascot. Cecil said the since there was so little between the 2 in the Juddmonte International Stakes that he was going to run Twice Over and Midday together in the Champion Stakes, also. Cecil also said the Champion Stakes would be Twice Over's last race before being retired to stud. As he doesn't go well enough on conventional dirt to come back to America for the BC Classic, according to Cecil. He also said it could be Midday's last race, too? But she does have an entry into the BC F&M Turf. But their waiting to see how she does at Ascot before deciding whether or not to bring Midday back to the F&M Turf? Cecil said if Midday does run in the F&M Turf? That will definitely be the final race of her career, also. · 600 days ago ·

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MarcelloMarocco · Twice over when he raced in 09 at Santa Anita never had a start on Synthetics, then after the breeders cup he tried again on the Tapeta surface at Meydan and got creamed again. He never really did his best running until he hit the 3/4 part of his 4yr old season. He is completely a different horse last year and this year compared to 09. Your comparing a couple of 3yr olds like Twice over and RVW to an inform , in her prime, on her preffered surface, in friendly confines of Santa Anita. . · 582 days ago ·

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MarcelloMarocco · Zenyatta. · 582 days ago ·

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zxswordxz · Very true Marcello.....Some horse develop into great horse in the later part of their career. However, you get a lot of juvenile here that don't see things that way.... · 582 days ago ·

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Frankel Impresses in QE II Workout

THE brilliant Frankel impressed work watchers on Friday morning when he put the finishes touches to his preparation for next Saturday's Queen Elizabeth II Stakes at Ascot.Ridden by Tom Queally, the son of Galileo, unbeaten in eight starts, was in action on the watered gallop with regular work compan...Read More

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Frankel Readies for Queen Elizabeth II Stakes

FRANKEL continued his preparation for the Qipco Queen Elizabeth II Stakes on October 15 with an impressive piece of work under big-race jockey Tom Queally on Friday morning.Unbeaten in eight career starts, Frankel worked over 7½f on the Watered Gallop in Newmarket at around 6.30am with stablemates H...Read More

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medlocke · I just finished watching an interview with Sir Henry Cecil that's posted on the Racing Post web-site. Cecil was interviewd by Racing Post while they were showing footage of work's for Frankel, Twice Over, and Midday in prepartion for the Champion's Day card at Ascot coming up in October. Cecil had this to say about Twice Over and Midday, and I quote: There was little between the two on the day in the Juddmonte International Stakes at York that we've decided to run the two together again in the G1 Champion Stakes. That race will be Twice Over's final race before he's reitred to stud. Because he doesn't go well enough on conventional dirt to bring him over for the BC Classic. The Champion Stakes could also possibly be Midday's final race? Although she does have an entry for the BC F&M Turf, and we're going to see first how well she comes out of the race at Ascot before we decide whether or not she'll go to Churchill Downs? If Midday does go to the BC F&M Turf? That will be her final race, for sure. End quote!! · 601 days ago ·

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Twice Over Surges Past Midday at York

TWICE OVER gave jockey Ian Mongan the biggest success of his career as he caught stablemate Midday in a Sir Henry Cecil-trained one-two finish to the Juddmonte International Stakes. In the build upto the Group 1, Cecil had been at pains to point out that Twice Over, a three-time Group 1 winner and f...Read More

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Big Guns Clash in Juddmonte International

A classy field of six will go to the post in Wednesday's International.Read More

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BrianZipse · With all the great females of recent years, not much is said about Midday, who has had an excellent career. Rooting for her tomorrow. · 641 days ago ·

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medlocke · Await The Dawn has been crying out for G1 company, and he finally gets it tomorrow!! This horse is lightly raced, but he's won 5 of 6 career starts. Including having bolted up at Chester in the G3 Huxley Stakes and at Ascot in the G2 Hardwicke Stakes. Proving that he stays beyond 10f, all the way to 12f. Mark my words, this horse will beat Midday in the Juddmonte International Stakes tomorrow!! American racing fan's should keep a sharp eye on Await The Dawn. Because he'll be coming stateside to represent Coolmore/Ballydoyle in this year's Breeders Cup Classic. You look at Await The Dawn's pedigree, sired by Giant's Causeway out of a Dixieland Band mare, and it suggest that he may be even more lethal on conventional dirt than he's been so far on turf. · 641 days ago ·

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BrianZipse · I agree medlocke ... if he is let go as the 3rd choice, it would be a steal. Like I said, I am rooting for the mare, but I recognize Await The Dawn is ready to step, and is the horse to beat in here. · 641 days ago ·

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orangeman88 · Does it scare you that he has an inexperienced jockey searching for his first G1? Plus, I believe its Aidan's son. I find it hard to take him at 4-5 even though he probably should win. · 641 days ago ·

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rossington · I think Await The Dawn can and will win the Juddmonte International Stakes on Wednesday. But he'll have to be at his very best to beat Midday, and who knows which Twice Over is likely to show up? As he was beaten by a very narrow margin in this same race by Rip Van Winkle in 2010. The one thing that I do find a little surprising is that Await The Dawn has been made market favorite for this race instead of Midday? This will be Await The Dawn's first ever attempt at G1 company, and Midday has 6 G1 win's to her credit. · 641 days ago ·

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yukichan · Love Midday--just concerned about her 17-day turn around after going 1 1/4. · 641 days ago ·

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footlick · orangeman88- Aiden's son seems to be doing ok. He just need experience in races like this and they are giving it to him. Would Aiden really ride him if he thought htat he wouldn't give him a good ride? · 641 days ago ·

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orangeman88 · I agree that he has Aidan's confidence, and I think its a nice horse but there are a lot of questions to be answered for a horse that is 4/5 right now. I would rather take the 2/1 on Midday or the 9/2 on Twice Over. If the odds get reversed however, I'd be happy to take Await the Dawn. Do you guys have any feelings on the Group 2 before the International? Seville is even but he seems to hang on the lead to me, which makes him vulnerable in my eyes. Namibian is my choice. · 641 days ago ·

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medlocke · @orangeman88, Seville's 2nd over 12f in the G1 Irish Derby and the G1 Grand Prix De Paris is the top form in the Great Voltigeur Stakes by some way. But keep a close eye on the Juddmonte horse trained by Sir Michael Stoute named Sea Moon. He's won 2 of 3 starts and was only beaten a shoulder in his one loss. 12f will suite him down to the ground, and he's really improving at a fast rate. · 641 days ago ·

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footlick · Both Namibian and Sea Moon are good chances to upset Seville. Agree with orangeman88 that the odds on Await the Dawn are tough to take when Twice Over may have his confidence back and Midday is running strong, both at better odds. But if Await the Dawn runs to his hype, he should win. · 640 days ago ·

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yukichan · Seville looks pretty good right now...will break his 2nds streak? · 640 days ago ·

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icyhotboo · AtD 4/5 - T 9/2 -M 2/1 · 640 days ago ·

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icyhotboo · Sea Moon- 6 lengths winner at 9/2 · 640 days ago ·

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footlick · Big race for Sea Moon · 640 days ago ·

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yukichan · Seville looks pretty good right now...will break his 2nds streak? · 640 days ago ·

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yukichan · Twice Over! Nice race! Midday--Queen of the 2nds... forgive the "his" reference above...she is classy even in her 2nds... · 640 days ago ·

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orangeman88 · Great call on Sea Moon, that was impressive. I think he has a great shot in the St. Ledger. Seville just doesn't have the killer instinct. I think Midday also hangs a bit when she gets the lead. How many times does she seem to be on her way to victory only to get passed at the wire? She is a great mare but I would never trust her to win. · 640 days ago ·

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Twice Over, Midday Head Juddmonte International

The Sir Henry Cecil-trained pair of Midday and Twice Over feature in a field of six for the $1.1 million Juddmonte International over 1¼ miles at York Racecourse on Wednesday. Read More

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Royal Ascot---Spotlight on Day 2

The Royal Ascot debut of So You Think highlights the action of day 2.Read More

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xMystix · Being trained under Aidan O'Brien, winning a Group One last time time out in good fashion, and the Prince of Wales Stakes being a seven horse field, I expect this horse to do relatively well tomorrow. · 704 days ago ·

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BrianZipse · I've been waiting for So You Think to face some top class competition in Europe ... tomorrow, he gets the chance. · 704 days ago ·

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xMystix · Agreed! It's going to be interesting to see him prove his worth tomorrow. Royal Ascot definitely provides exciting entertainment :). · 704 days ago ·

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Stars Shine at York

Midday and Carlton House took center stage at York's Dante meeting earlier this week.Read More

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BrianZipse · Great to see Midday back, and in fine fettle! · 736 days ago ·

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Victoire Pisa Wins World Cup for Japan

The 2011 edition of the Dubal World Cup ended up being a showcase for Japan as horses from that ailing country took the top two spots with Victoire Pisa and Transcend. Transcent went straight to the front over a tiring Tapeta surface at Maydan with eventual winner Victoire Pisa sitting back in last ...Read More

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medlocke · This year's Dubai World Cup really served to remind me how much I truly miss the race being run on the conventional dirt at Nad Al Sheba. Victoire Pisa had to come 5 or 6 wide to forge to the front early just to inject any pace at all into the race, as it was run at a terrible dottle. That move turned out to be the best tactical move of the race. As Victoire Pisa took the lead and never looked back. · 783 days ago ·

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Gio Ponti, Twice Over Head Deep World Cup Field

Twice Over (GB) is the tepid morning line favorite for Saturday’s Dubai World Cup. The 14-horse field also includes Fly Down, Gio Ponti, and three intriguing Japanese entrants. Read More

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Dubai World Cup, Sheema Classic, Duty Free barrier draw and DubaiRaceNight.com odds

Listed below is the barrier draw for the 2011 Dubai World Cup, Dubai Sheema Classic, and Dubai Duty Free, all Group 1 races run at Meydan on Saturday. The unofficial, but suggested DubaiRaceNight.com odds are listed as well. The barriers were drawn in a ceremony on Wednesday night from t...Read More

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Twice Over - Pedigree

[Edit]

Observatory	Distant View	Mr. Prospector
		Seven Springs
	Stellaria	Roberto
		Victoria Star
Double Crossed	Caerleon	Nijinsky II
		Foreseer
	Quandary	Blushing Groom
		Lost Virtue