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Preakness 2013
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Preakness 2013
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Orb
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Ticker
Eblouissante
breezed 4f :49.17 (18/44) at Belmont (dirt Training) on 5-22.
Posted 2 hours ago
Giant Finish
will make his next start in Belmont Stakes 2013.
Posted 6 hours ago
Unlimited Budget
is expected to face males in Belmont Stakes 2013.
Posted 1 day ago
Verrazano
will make his next start in the Pegasus Stakes at Monmouth on 6-16.
Posted 1 day ago
Dreaming of Julia
will make her next start in the Mother Goose at Belmont on 6-22.
Posted 1 day ago
Game On Dude
worked 4f in :50.60 (28/36) at Santa Anita on 5-20.
Posted 2 days ago
Overanalyze
, breezing for Belmont Stakes 2013, went 4f in :47.50 (3/34) at Belmont (dirt training) on 5-19.
Posted 3 days ago
2013 Belmont Stakes hopeful
Palace Malice
breezed 4f in :47.49 (2/34) at Belmont Park (dirt training) on 5-19.
Posted 3 days ago
Coffee Clique
romps in the Selene Stakes!
Posted 3 days ago
Royal Delta
breezed 4f in :52.03 (15/23) at Belmont Park on 5-19.
Posted 3 days ago
Home
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Street Sense
Ride
Street Sense
against other champions!
Street Sense
9 year old Horse
Retired
2
fans
2
17
favorites
17
[Edit]
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Owner(s):
James B. Tafel
-
Trainer:
Carl A. Nafzger
Bred:
Kentucky (USA)
by
James B. Tafel
-
[Add Data]
Pedigree:
Street Cry
-
Bedazzle
by
Dixieland Band
Rating:
8.16/10
My Rating:
No rating
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What the Nation is saying about Street Sense...
Post comment to my Facebook profile
Preakness 2013: A Deep Closer Approach Can Be Risky
Recent history does not bode well for Kentucky Derby winners known as deep closers.
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Posted
8 days ago ·
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BrianZipse
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I don't expect him to better than 7th early on, but watch him roll on the far turn.
· 8 days ago ·
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AndyScoggin
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Orb has the versatility to fit what is happening in the Preakness and that is why he will win. See my post on Preakness Winning Running Styles.
· 8 days ago ·
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waltdidney
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ace of their lives. Gov Charlie and Departingwill not be a walk in the park.
· 8 days ago ·
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waltdidney
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What about the "bounce" factor? And did any of Orb's foes fail to do their best because of the slop?
· 8 days ago ·
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illhaveanothertriplecrown
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Yes, Goldencents.
· 8 days ago ·
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travel_vic
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think back to your hugh school days...Did you bounce? I never did: worked 16 hours, slep 2 and then at it again until midnight the next day..These animals are adolescents remember
· 7 days ago ·
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LennyGeorge
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He just worked 47 and change...what does that tell you and he did it effortously...He picked up 3 yer old champion Shaghai bobby and laid him to rest and won from way behind in the derby after a 1:09 and change i you don't think he is the real deal then I don't know what to tell you
· 7 days ago ·
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Kentucky Derby...Think Twice about Favored Pace Types
While doing our analysis for the Kentucky Derby Super Screener, we came upon some interesting insights centered on the role of energy distribution profiles (running styles) and their impact on the outcome of the top four Kentucky Derby finishers.
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Posted
31 days ago ·
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Show All 31 Comments
CauseForConcern
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I would guess gate-to-wire prior to War Emblem, might be Winning Colors?
· 30 days ago ·
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rafirox
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It doesn't shock that there has been no pace horse to win the Derby in 10 years. What did shock me, however, was how many closers won... I'm surprised Barbaro in 2006 is a so called closer. I understand his distribution was somewhat late, but he was a true positional horse. The pace, which is rare, didn't truly affect his positioning in the field (of course, this is a rare case. It can be pointed with Zenyatta, Rachel Alexandra, etc)... Besides this exception, I was astonished at the actual closers that have found away to get up in time. I'll Have Another profiled as a "closer" is a bit crappy, but I could see it. Animal Kingdom had a late distribution, Super Saver had a late distribution, Giacomo actually had an on-par distribution, as t_v has said, but he was deep. Street Sense, etc, etc. I think the key to using this very important information is finding a late distribution horse who has the capabilty to be somewhat close to the lead (4-6 lengths) and who can get up in time. Often these late movers don't get up in time, but they are full of run. I realized that last year and put a SHOW bet on Dullahan. It's kind of hard to think of horses in the Derby who can get up in time, so I think the key is finding the "closer" distribution that still has that hint of speed (i.e I'll Have Another)... This is fantastic data, Mike, thank you for it.
· 30 days ago ·
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rafirox
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This is why I write off Java'a War for the WIN bet.. Most likely, I will put a SHOW bet on him. His pace parameters are VERY LATE, but he sustains a dramatic rally. He will go way wide and pick off horses easily in the stretch. Will he get up in time? That is the question. This practice is utilized consistently, and IMO, a very important aspect to wagering. If you bet exotics in the Derby, I recommend putting these late movers in 3rd and 4th. This tool you pointed, Mike, is key since if you can find a horse with late distribution, but still can stalk the pace, will win the race. Front runners, due to the other 2-3 pace horses (if there is a 20 horse field, you're bound to have 2-3 pace horses) usually must go 46 or 47 and then 1:10 or 1:11. They, unless a truly special horse (i.e Bodemeister) can't hold up. Closers are more likely to hit traffic, be swung wide, and not get up in time. Knowing this, I often bet a SHOW bet on one special late horse. I throw out front runners, usually in the Derby, and I am left, for the win: With a stalking horse, who sustains a pressing position and will settle, and has the kcik at the end (which is technically your distribution fact) and BAM I pick my Derby horse. I didn't have I'll Have Another (however he fit this profile to perfection), I didn't have Animal Kingdom (even though my brother, friend and dad all made a fortune on him), but I did have Super Saver (because of mud), Barbaro (because of these reasons), Smarty Jones (because of these reasons) and Real Quiet (because of this reason).., Thanks for the insight, Mike.
· 30 days ago ·
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cocoa2
·
Churchill has always favored closers, it has a long stretch that is comfortable around horse's feet and coming around the final turn the field is usually 6 horses across.
· 30 days ago ·
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rafirox
·
It favors late distribution, not closers. Most winners of the Derby come from 4-6 lengths off. That's not closing. Ignorant statement that long stretch always favors closers. Fair Grounds has a long stretch, and people automatically assume it favors closers. But, really, Fair Grounds has a fiarly early energy distribution.
· 30 days ago ·
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cocoa2
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Okay, rafi, you want to fight. You know this how? Throw your data on the table, you have an unsubstantiated claim and it's about time you prove it. Don't make some smart ass comment to me, prove it with statistics and facts, not self assuring "my argument is valid"'s
· 30 days ago ·
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rafirox
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I
· 30 days ago ·
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rafirox
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Sorry. I'm a smart ass? LMAO.. For the Derby is a prime example (since I don't bet CD very often). First you must know the difference between late distribution and closers, which I doubt you do, considering how you fail to comprhend this aspect of the game to even the slightest degree. Anyway, instead of overloading you with data your tiny brain can absorb, I'll keep it simple. Look at this data above. I'll Have Another is CLASSIFIED as late... Is he a closer? Barbaro is CLASSIFIED late, is he a closer? It's not hard to understand. If you don't know how to graph the energu distribution and such, simply go to brisnet and look (E, E/P, P, S)... Graph, on EVERYDAY races at Churchill, and tell me what it favors.. Then watch the race... was the winner a closer? This is simple information I doubt you'll comprehend. A late distribution doesn't translate, specifically, to "closing"... POSITION is an illusion. It is simply how horse x's pace stacks against horse x's pace. Postion (closing) is not translatable to pace (late)... Only few horses, probably 1 in 1,000 have a STYLE where PACE doesn't affect there POSITION. Zenyatta is an example. Pace did not afect her positioning, she just ran into it. A example(s) of pace affecting positioning? Orb at a 45 split is 8 lengths off, at 49 split he is 4 lengths off. etc, etc. Of course this data is NOT conversable to different tracks, that is why pace handicappers use trackmaster to translate the distribution. I'm sure you have no clue what I'm talking about... I'll leave this for you to figure out.
· 30 days ago ·
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cocoa2
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You gave no sources and made several gross remarks including but not limited to; "I'm sure you have no clue what I'm talking about... I'll leave this for you to figure out" and "First you must know the difference between late distribution and closers, which I doubt you do, considering how you fail to comprhend this aspect of the game to even the slightest degree.", I don't think you do notice how big a dick you're being.
· 30 days ago ·
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cocoa2
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Did you actually just use Zenyatta as an example? That's like using Secretariat and saying all horses should run 12f in 2:24 because he did...
· 30 days ago ·
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cocoa2
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Don't you understand that the thing that makes these champions the champions they are is their doing things that regular horses cannot? Using a claimer would've been stronger
· 30 days ago ·
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rafirox
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Sorry, (cont) (as much as tv) but, it is obvious. YOU DO NOT UNDERSTAND. Unless you let me teach it to you, which I can't, since you're to immature to admit I know something you don't , lol. Obviously, based on your response, you have no clue and didn't comprehend a word I said about how pace affects the illusion of positioning (which is not complicated to get used to)
· 30 days ago ·
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cocoa2
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^^ so you just wrote a whole post on how I don't understand and how I'm too immature... Let us get insight from the poor people withstanding your nonsense, has anything I have done on this thread provoked this nastiness? Rafi is being a pretty big bully to me
· 30 days ago ·
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cocoa2
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And NEVER forget, guys, I am the immature one. Don't forget, I can see why you might get a little mixed up.
· 30 days ago ·
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rafirox
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You think you speak for all of HRN, but, truly, you speak for Mary Z and you. "Rafi
· 30 days ago ·
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rafirox
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"Rafi
· 30 days ago ·
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rafirox
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Ugh! Sorry! My computer! "Rafi's loosing all his fans!" or "You're digging yourself in a deeper and deeer hole.".... You speak for you and Mary (considering tcglory isn't in your little group of aholes, but very well could be).
· 30 days ago ·
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cocoa2
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So now you can read my thoughts? I speak for me, and only me. Not Mary Z.
· 30 days ago ·
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cocoa2
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My "little group of aholes" << nice, very mature.
· 30 days ago ·
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amino998
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Cocoa’s smart enough not to post 1 guy’s comment on another guy’s account :D.
· 30 days ago ·
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1
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rafirox
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:D. Tha post confused me, but I got it... Carlos no longer posts here anyway, I didn't need that multi account nutcase accusation crap.. He's made like three comments on my account, but that was the only one he did by accident (he wrote "hey ed, blah, blah, blah." therefore making it look weird... Anyway, have a good one, amino.
· 30 days ago ·
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amino998
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What was that "I can't post here anymore" crap?
· 30 days ago ·
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1
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Mary Z.
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What's this crap with my name?
· 30 days ago ·
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travel_vic
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EVERY Derby winner save one, the Brown Put was sustained/presser....That steroid frankenhorse was presser.
· 30 days ago ·
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minethatbird08
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Not sure how you can count some of those horses as closers. Super Saver, IHA, Barbaro...They all pressed the pace
· 29 days ago ·
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1
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KristenNeiding
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You manipulated the data to create the result you wanted. It's either that or you're that bad at classifying the horses' running styles. I'll Have Another, Super Saver, Eight Belles, and Barbaro were stalkers. Barbaro ran the opening 6 furlongs in fourth place, so apparently there was one pace horse and presser, then everyone else is a closer? In fact, you classify Big Brown as a presser and Eight Belles as a closer, but if you watch the race through the opening mile, they race head and head, and on the backstretch she actually gets a length in front of him. How can you take two horses that raced side by side, and give them different running styles? Not impressive.
· 27 days ago ·
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Sullivan
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Kristen, it is important to note that date that is to be used prior to the Derby should only include data collected prior to the derby. I still think you have some very valid points, hence my like
· 27 days ago ·
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travel_vic
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All but a single animal, ran the last prep in a % median in the range 67.2-67.8 sustianed presser by fractoinal velocity and energy distribution...That is fact.
· 27 days ago ·
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travel_vic
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What POSITIONAL definitions miss, is that definition of a front running victory in 49, 1:13 4/5 1:38 etc gets the same "credit" as a front runner who zips through 26 2/5 1:10 3/5 and 1:35 and they are WORLD'S apart.....Same horse runs it race, lets say presser versus a fast, medium or slow pace of race and what happens, usually, to the positions they go from further back in the fastest example to closer up in the latter one..The horse ran the same, but postionally looked MUCH different.
· 27 days ago ·
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travel_vic
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that 1st fraction for fast shoule be 24 2/5 not 26 2/5
· 27 days ago ·
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travel_vic
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Postional analysis would have stated that Giacomo was LATE and it was well known the the 3rd place colt, Afleet Alex was much later, Fusaichi, Charismatic, Funny CIde, War Emblem, Super Saver, Smarty Jones, Monarchos all had the SAME average prep % medians and some of the ridiculous LATE ones like Pyro, Sweetnorthernsaint, were too too late as were those too early like Bellamy Road, Lion Heart and Hard Spun...To late and too early for the WIN, now Barbaro was all over the map and the Brown frankencolt was high at 67.8 -to 68.9, but just barely
· 27 days ago ·
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I Can Only Choose One...
As I go through and look at the potential contenders for the Derby and the Oaks and their pedigrees, it gets me thinking – if money wasn’t an issue and I owned a mare, which sire would I have her bred to?
Read More
Posted
97 days ago ·
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Show All 1 Comments
cocoa2
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Speightstown seems to be based off his wives, as far as distance goes. Haynesfield was out of a distance running mare while Speightstown's sprinters are usually out of sprinters. He is a good pick for any mare, but if you're looking for a colt who wants 10f and the mommy only wanted 8f, I think Hat Trick or Street Cry would be your man.
· 40 days ago ·
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Street Sense
Nice looking filly by Street Sense: http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10152077186549240&set=a.10152077122429240.1073741825.261778564239&type=3&src=http%3A%2F%2Fsphotos-e.ak.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-ak-frc1%2F856132_10152077186549240_1725697023_o.jpg&smallsrc=http%3A%2F%2Fsphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-ash3%2F11323_10152077186549240_1725697023_n.jpg&size=1000%2C800
Posted by
Dressage3295
·
72 days ago ·
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0
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Show All 20 Comments
cocoa2
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Eh... head and lower back.
· 72 days ago ·
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Dressage3295
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She's still in her "funky twos". She should grow nicely. I like her because her body reminds me of a greyhound.
· 71 days ago ·
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bigbill859
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hou is not on tvg or hrtv
· 71 days ago ·
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cocoa2
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She just isn't fattened up like most of them are
· 71 days ago ·
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0
icyhotboo
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hou isoncabletvifuhaveit
· 71 days ago ·
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0
bigbill859
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my race is on tvg right now swet me in
· 71 days ago ·
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bigbill859
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2 to 1 that bad
· 71 days ago ·
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bigbill859
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are y watching ral
· 71 days ago ·
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bigbill859
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i got the 5
· 71 days ago ·
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0
bigbill859
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god md-r is the best from last to first im back ill go over tonight if you have a horse md-r thanks you are unblieveable if you like a hors tonight md-r let me know thanks again
· 71 days ago ·
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bigbill859
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i have never seen anything like this y are undeafted since i been on here 6 or 7 in a row
· 71 days ago ·
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Dressage3295
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cocoa- To me, it just looks like she will always be naturally lean. bill- get off this thread a make your own. You have no idea how you and your gibberish are
· 71 days ago ·
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cocoa2
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I quite enjoy bill.
· 71 days ago ·
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Dressage3295
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What part of him? The incomprehensible part or the random posting on threads that hold no relevance to his subject?
· 71 days ago ·
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Northport
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both
· 71 days ago ·
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cocoa2
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The part where previously he hadn't insulted anyone and had just been nice. Northport, I can answer my own questions, thank you.
· 71 days ago ·
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Northport
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oh take it easy, it's called a joke
· 71 days ago ·
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cocoa2
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Mine was called a warning.
· 71 days ago ·
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Northport
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lol okay
· 71 days ago ·
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Dressage3295
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Don't know if anyone else noticed this (I just did), but she has the EXACT same head as her great grandsire, Damascus
· 71 days ago ·
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1
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2013 Kentucky Derby: It's Time to Raise the Stakes
A win in a 50 point race deserves a spot but when should they be considered legitimate contenders?
Read More
Posted
75 days ago ·
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Show All 9 Comments
kentuckyderbypost
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Sorry i didn't include this info but in case you don't know: other San Felipe / KyDerby winners: Sunday Silence, Alysheba, Affirmed, Lucky Debonair, Tommy Lee, Determine & Jet Pilot
· 75 days ago ·
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The Beast
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Great Info Bryan.. Thx!
· 75 days ago ·
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buds
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Nice work. I think horses need at least 40 points to make the derby, unless there are a few that have the points and elect not to go due to injury or the like. I do think that there will be a horse that uses the wild card races to get some extra points. If a horse is sitting at 30 points, because they finished 3rd or 4th in the 100 point prep race, I wouldnt be suprised to see them double back for the 1 mile derby trial.
· 75 days ago ·
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Floridaf
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I have not been too impressed with the TB Derby fields as of late, but this year is certainly different. With the level of talent in this race, maybe we'll see another complete the TB/KY Derby double.
· 75 days ago ·
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annmatt
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It seems to me that one of the purposes of the new points system was to keep out obvious mis-fits like Trinniberg, who clearly had no business running in a route race. I can't recall if he took a spot of a legitimate contender or not, but that certainly was a possibility under the old system. It will be interesting after this Derby cycle concludes what changes they may to the system. Some tweaks no doubt will be made. On the whole I like the new system. They could have made the Derby an invitational only, but many would have found that to be less than desirable.
· 72 days ago ·
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buds
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The only tweaks I would make up to this point is I would give the BC juvi winner 50 pts, 2nd 20 points, 3rd 10pts (At least) The 2 yr old champ should be in no matter what!
· 72 days ago ·
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buds
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The only tweaks I would make up to this point is I would give the BC juvi winner 50 pts, 2nd 20 points, 3rd 10pts (At least) The 2 yr old champ should be in no matter what!
· 72 days ago ·
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0
charliep
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The San Felipe is not at all a good indicator of success in the kentucky Derby. In the last 25 years, only 2 winners have won the Derby, those being Sunday Silence (who won the Santa Anita Derby) and Fusiachi Pegausus (who won the Wood). Alysheba ran 2nd in the 1987 San Felipe to Chart The Stars.
· 72 days ago ·
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0
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charliep
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The 3rd place finisher in the Bredders Cup Juvenile should get AT LEAST as many points as the horse that wins the San Felipe or the Tampa Bay Derby. We're talking about a Grade 1 champioship race versus a couple of Grade 2 races, one of which (Tampa Derby) should be a Grade 3.
· 72 days ago ·
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Street Sense
Street Sense's full brother, True Sense, never raced 'cause of injury. He's coming to stand in Manitoba, kinda neat.
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Sysonby
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90 days ago ·
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travel_vic
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Cahill Road, Unbridled's full brother bowed in the Wood on his way to the Derby. He has stood in the Pacific Northwest to good reviews for a good while now.
· 90 days ago ·
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Sysonby
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Also neat
· 90 days ago ·
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Juvenile Jinx plays a part in picking a Derby winner
the transition from a good two-year old to a great three-year old is not guaranteed
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94 days ago ·
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tliff
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good analogies by Nafzger and interesting read
· 91 days ago ·
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cocoa2
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Thank you, interesting read and I'll have to research more about maturation in horses.
· 91 days ago ·
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Pletcher Gambling Big with Verrazano in the Tampa Bay Derby
Is the Tampa Bay Derby the right spot for Verrazano?
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99 days ago ·
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christopher.duganberry
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Stay away from the Florida tracks when prepping a horse for the derby. The tracks down here are very deceiving and a great victory here in Florida really doesn't count for much. ie: Empire Maker had a brilliant final derby prep here in Florida then came up short in Kentucky. Stay away from Florida...the tracks here are speed-favoring and deceiving.
· 99 days ago ·
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travel_vic
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Empire Maker was UNLUCKY like many other colts and the location of the prep was irrelevant
· 99 days ago ·
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Peppermint Paddy
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I'd vouge for staying away from AQU come preps...they'll fall of course every year there. IWantRevenge, Eskendereya, Uncle Mo. Gemologist all knocked off the trail, or came back to run poorly in the Derby. 2 Wood winners have comeback to win the roses in the past 36 years, FuPeg, Slew. Call it irrelevance or what you want, theres a curse about.
· 99 days ago ·
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DeadHeat
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Peppermint, remember Funny Cide came from the Wood. He did not win it, but he was second to Empire Maker, who ran well in the Derby and came back to win the Belmont. The Wood is not cursed, the NY preps just haven't gotten the talent others have and horses who have run there recently just had the luck of getting injured or sick. Mo also did not win, that was Toby's corner, who did get hurt. Mo ran well, and got sick before the Derby, came back to run second in the Kings Bishop and win the Kelso. Gemologist was hurt in the Derby, it is quite possible the injury took away from him. Also, Florida has done very well prep wise. Barbaro, Big Brown, Ice Box, Monarchos, and Empire Maker all either ran well or won the Kentucky Derby.
· 99 days ago ·
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travel_vic
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the Blue Grass and he LA Derby are the duds. SA and Ark Derbies are the better ones these days.
· 99 days ago ·
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Peppermint Paddy
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DH, I didn't say stay away from Florida, that was Duganberry*. Also recall War Pass running in the Wood, not making the Derby. True, horses like Genuine Risk, Monarchos, Funny Cide came back to win, and Easy Goer ran well too. Many curses abound...Wood, U-song, BC Juv. I'd pefer to run mine either FL or CA where horses prove to run well going into the Derby, and in the Derby. The past few years haven't been kind is no joke. Arkansas is worthy IMO. Lets see what happens this year, that is whomever runs in the Wood and Derby.
· 99 days ago ·
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Mary Z.
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Very preliminarily, as the entries have to be considered, this does not look to be a big gamble, but instead an easy win for Verrazano. Good choice for gaining points.
· 99 days ago ·
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gene.cirillo
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5 of the last 7 Derby winners raced @ Gulfstream! Nuff said
· 99 days ago ·
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zxswordxz
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Where is KIA?
· 99 days ago ·
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dani.pugh
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Peppermint, sorry, sometimes after the initial address, I will not include a name to the next comment i address, sorry for the confusion. War Pass was injured after the Wood I believe. Tale of Ekati, who won, actually ran pretty well in the Derby. Mary, yes it does look like easy points, but as stated and as Tampa is well known for, that surface can be very unpredictable. You either like it or you don't. If he doesn't competition may not matter.
· 99 days ago ·
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travel_vic
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both Tale of Ektaki and War Pass did not match up at all Derby day
· 99 days ago ·
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jay s.
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Obviously I'm biased, but would've loved for Verrazano to take the Arkansas route of the Southwest, Rebel, and Ark Derby. I think it would've been a good test and a good fit.
· 99 days ago ·
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marylandgq
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I hope Verrazano does well in Tampa Bay Derby, placing the focus on him instead of some of the others who have a legitimate chance of winning the KY Derby. Just my opinion.
· 98 days ago ·
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dani.pugh
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Know it all, the great thing about America is that I get to have an opinion as do you. I don't trust the Tampa Bay Downs surface, it is tricky, and that is a fact that most horseman and even gamlers will validate. Not every horse likes it. Great horses, talented horse can fall victim to tracks, Skip Away for instance was a great horse yet was never fond of Churchill Downs, another track that normally requires proven form and experience over. He is talented and he is brilliant. He is by far the most impressive on paper, that does not mean he will handle an unpredictable track that he has no experience over. Next time bring some facts to a debate, because telling a person to shut up and go cook something gives you absolutely no credit or respect.
· 98 days ago ·
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travel_vic
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I work with a group of investors out of Reno and they love the Tampa Bay surface...I do not agree with them, but they love it
· 98 days ago ·
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shadowno
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Uncapture who has shown an affinity for the CD surface finally had a recorded work this morning.
· 98 days ago ·
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Floridaf
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I actually like this move for Verrazano, but the field is coming up stronger than I had anticipated. This year's TB Derby looks like it's shaping up to be a good one.
· 96 days ago ·
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rickvaler
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s
· 95 days ago ·
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rickvaler
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You say Super
· 95 days ago ·
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rickvaler
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Super Saver "still came up short"????? Didn't come up so short in the Kentucky Derby....
· 95 days ago ·
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travel_vic
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Two of THE BEST trainers of my day, Whittingham and Woody did not care so much the outcome of a race but more in what their horse got out of it for a bigger loftier role down the line. SO WHAT if the horse is in a tight or wrong spot if the trainer is using this race as a training source to find out what he really needs to know to make the three year old better down the line.
· 95 days ago ·
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travel_vic
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I always thought that in order to really KNOW about a colts distance capabilities, a trainer should look for TWO 9 furlong tests...Maybe even the first one in an allowance situation just to see what they have and what he needed to work on.
· 95 days ago ·
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travel_vic
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Canonero had as I recall, three 10 furlong races in South American after shipping out from Del Mar where he was not fast enough in the Del mar Futurity against females.
· 95 days ago ·
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amino998
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Don't know the details, but that would be the Debutante.
· 95 days ago ·
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CauseForConcern
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dani.pugh - someone once mentioned to me that the Tampa Bay track was one, if not the only, track that was actually under sea level. Therefore, times would be somewhat slower when the tide was up. Have you heard of any fact/theory of this nature?
· 95 days ago ·
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Mary Z.
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Did I just read that? ;)
· 95 days ago ·
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buds
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Golden Gate has an elevation of 0 ft, the horses there seem to post slow times.
· 95 days ago ·
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Mary Z.
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That may be due to the surface, not the elevation.
· 95 days ago ·
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Sully
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Or a better theory may be it may be due to the talent running at the aforementioned tracks than any unproven theories.
· 95 days ago ·
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dani.pugh
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I haven't heard that. Elevation could play a roll, it depends on the moisture the area gets though honestly. I would think lower elevation would retain more moisture, slowing the track, while higher elevations would retain less. Again, it depends on the percipitation. Many things could go into how a track plays.
· 95 days ago ·
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Sully
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Human athletes tend to perform less efficiently at higher elevations because it's harder to breathe. Not getting it.
· 95 days ago ·
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dani.pugh
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Sully, my point is the lower elevation could lead to a wetter track, possibly slowing it down. Depends on the amount of percipitation in the area honestly. If TBD gets lots of rain, the track could retain the more moisture for a longer period of time than some place that is at sea level or slightly above. That can make the track produce slower times. You are correct, that a horse coming from a much lower altitude to a higher one would have difficult because it's harder to breath, but to those there and used to it, it would have little effect because thier bodies are used to it. A track that is wet and slow will always be wet and slow and always produce times that are lesser than a track that is harder and not as deep.
· 95 days ago ·
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travel_vic
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learn about evaporation and water in the air, my goodness http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dew_point
· 95 days ago ·
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buds
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Like all other races, if Verrazano is best on that day he will win, itdoesnt matter if they run under sea level or at mile high stadium. Pletcher has a tough situation, he needs to get points for all 10 of his TC nominated horses, without knocking himself out of the field.
· 95 days ago ·
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Kentucky Derby: The All-Weather Track Preps
Racing only on dirt leading up to the first Saturday in May is a thing of the past.
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96 days ago ·
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BrianZipse
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The one saving grace to all these synthetic preps, at least for the Kentucky Derby, is that the Churchill Downs main track seems to be as friendly to synthetic or turf runners as any dirt track in the nation.
· 96 days ago ·
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CauseForConcern
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Good article. A couple of questions. Of the three that won on AWT(Mine That Bid, Animal Kingdom, and I'll Have Another), their careers would either shortly come to a close, or, in the case of Mine That Bird, never followed up his Derby win with anything of major significance. A question that probably can't be answered, but, could the injuries of AK and IHA have been accelerated because of the change of track? Also, did California a few years back, make it mandatory for all tracks to transfer to synthetic, which caused Bay Meadows to close? If so, then why was Santa Anita allowed to go back to dirt? I know that they had Pro-Ride, while the other three tracks had Cushion(Hollywood), Tapeta(Golden Gate), and Polytrack(Del Mar). Why wasn't Santa Anita instructed to place another synthetic surface?
· 96 days ago ·
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travel_vic
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Horses that excel on synthetics do it, in part, or running at a much later energy distribution than is required at CD.......The TRACK and its energy requirements for success tell if a horse can handle it or not.
· 96 days ago ·
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AndyScoggin
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Have we seen that "synthetic horse" this year in Violence? He has an experience edge on most of the contenders.
· 96 days ago ·
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kentuckyderbypost
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CauseForConcern: Good Question(s). I can't answer with any certainty that switching between surfaces increased the chance of injury for AK or IHA. In comparison, however, Street Sense performed soundly on both surfaces before and after the derby without any major setbacks. Also, Super Saver never raced on anything but dirt but like MTB he also never followed up with any significant efforts in his 3 races that followed the derby. So, I can’t say for sure but your question probably varies quite differently depending on who you ask.
· 96 days ago ·
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kentuckyderbypost
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CauseForConcern: 2nd question - Yes, by mandate of the California Horse Racing Board in 2006, i believe, all tracks had to install synthetic surfaces. Bay Meadows didn't meet the deadline and eventually closed. However, i think that Bay Meadows was closing anyway so they didn't see any reason to pay a huge bill for an updated surface. Secondly, the mandate was more of an experiment. Santa Anita pushed back and also had trouble draining water from the new surface. So, they made their case and got approved to return to dirt.
· 96 days ago ·
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travel_vic
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Old Bay Meadows was destined for the wrecking ball many years before that mandate.
· 96 days ago ·
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zatt
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Dullahan seems like a good example, and flying right behind him was Went the Day Well. Outside of the Derby, Einstein comes to mind.
· 96 days ago ·
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CauseForConcern
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Thanks for the feedback, kyderbypost. You did mention that Street Sense performed soundly(which he did) on synthetic, but isn't it ironic that he was 0-for-3 on that surface? Anyhow, looking forward to your next post. Keep up the good work. zatt, I believe that Einstein might be the only horse to win Grade 1's on on all three suraces?
· 95 days ago ·
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buds
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I dont think there is a connection in switching from synthetic to dirt and injuries to horses. If there was I think a pattern greater than 3-4 horses would have emerged, and the horse racing world would have caught on.
· 95 days ago ·
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buds
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I also think the preps are horse specific. Some horse can make the transition easier, and with greater success than others
· 95 days ago ·
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Street Sense
I don't believe this horse gets enough credit. Proved to be the best in a generation of strong runners. He won both the BC Juvenile & KY derby in an impressive fashion, and continued to run well after. He also has produced some really nice foals.
Posted by
gold n money
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126 days ago ·
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cocoa2
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That BC killed him. Nothing was going his way, but it was still disapointing
· 126 days ago ·
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gold n money
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That is true. His last race was the only race I was really dissappointed in. I do kind of wish they had run one him one more time for redemption .. because I do believe he was the best horse - but I am neither the owner, nor the trainer so I had no say in what happened.
· 126 days ago ·
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travel_vic
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There was a slow yet signficant rise steadily in this ones % median energy over his last 4 races as was pointed out by the DRF columnist, Randy Goulding, to a group of us before the B C Classic that shouted GOING OFF FORM!!!!!
· 126 days ago ·
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Sysonby
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He was a very good horse but I think saying he was the best of the his crop, if that's what you were saying, is at least debatable.
· 126 days ago ·
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geldedridgling
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Saying Street Sense was the best horse of his generation is more than debatable; it's simply not true. Curlin was clearly the best horse of that crop: AR Derby winner, 3rd in KY Derby, Preakness winner, Breeders Cup Classic and Dubai world cup winner. It's not even close.
· 126 days ago ·
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gold n money
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Perhaps debatable- I still stand by my belief that SS was better than Curlin. I have my opinions you can have yours. I was just talking to some friends earlier and they had completely written off Street sense, also the ratings here show a similar theme. He was an incredibly talented colt, give credit where credit is due.
· 126 days ago ·
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gold n money
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^ Not saying he i the only horse I believe to be misplaced in the rankings .. just the one that was freshest on my mind.
· 126 days ago ·
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ajump08
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Street Sense- Breeders’ Cup Juvenile (GI) Kentucky Derby (GI) Travers Stakes (GI) Champion 2yo Colt Best Beyer: 111 (when finishing 2nd to Curlin in the Preakness) Curlin- Breeders’ Cup Classic (GI) Preakness (GI) Jockey Club Gold Cup (GI) x2 Dubai World Cup (GI) Woodward (GI) Horse of the Year x2 Champion 3yo colt Champion Older Horse Best Beyer: 119
· 126 days ago ·
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geldedridgling
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Not trying to change your opinion gold n money, just looking at the facts. I forgot to mention they raced against each other 3 times and Curlin won twice. I think it may be the case that Street Sense has been overshadowed by Curlin but both were good, just not on the same level.
· 126 days ago ·
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Age of Reason
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As travel-vic already noted, it seemed like Street Sense preferred time off between races (I actually said that before his Preakness bc it worried me), and his tailing off at the end of a very ambitious 3yo campaign is very unfortunate. As to Street Sense vs. Curlin, just go back and watch the Preakness; clearly there wasn't much separating the two when they were in form. Besides, how many other coltd
· 126 days ago ·
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Age of Reason
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...how many other costs have swept the Derby, Travers/Jim Dandy, BC Juvenile (by 11 freakin' lengths!), not to mention the Tampa Bay Derby in NTR time over a G1 winner?
· 126 days ago ·
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goblin
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Rewatching the Preakness will show Curlin being passed by Street Sense in deep stretch, and Curlin fighting successfully to regain the lead at the wire. At that time (before Secretariat's time was officially changed this year by the Maryland officials) Curlin had tied the record. Curlin then participated in the Belmont (along with Hard Spun) while Street Sense did not run. Curlin had quite the ambitious campaign at age 3, not having started as a 2y/o and not having raced until February, 2007.
· 126 days ago ·
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travel_vic
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Curlin: not too amazing what anabolic steroids can do
· 126 days ago ·
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timgsmith10
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Curlin was better IMO but I loved both!! STEROIDS.. VIC..look at Ben Johnson in 1988 Olympics..Steroids were around long before Curlin/Big Brown..To think that All Champions (Ghostzapper/RealQuiet/SmartyJones/Cigar/etc couldnt have been juiced is Dumb..Im sure most were.
· 126 days ago ·
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goblin
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Quite right, timgsmith! The anabolics were legal until late 2008, and we will never know which horses were given which anabolics in what doses. For absolute fact, Curlin raced twice in Dubai on no meds.
· 126 days ago ·
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travel_vic
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Only know of THREE for sure (and steroids were a discovery of German pharmaceutical houses in the thirties) Curlin the Brown Out and Winning Colors....Did I suggest any others? NO
· 126 days ago ·
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travel_vic
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The anabolic effects of a steriod last longer than its current usage. Look how stallions shrink in mass after they are off of it because it retards spertatogenesis
· 126 days ago ·
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goblin
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Yes, t_v, and I have agreed/backed you on the anabolic discussions more than once on this blog. One thing I have noticed about Curlin in particular is that his physique has not changed much in appearance since the beginning.
· 126 days ago ·
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travel_vic
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Just look at HULK Hogan.......The Incredible shrinking man.....Wonder how much testicular atrophy he had to endure??
· 126 days ago ·
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travel_vic
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One pays the piper with meds like anabolic steroids as I recall the great line from Blade Runner in regards to the lifespan of the main Nexus artificial life from Roy Batty; "The light that shines twice as bright, shines half as long."
· 126 days ago ·
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kay.robinett
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TV, I am a woman but the words "testicular atrophy" still make me wince. Ouch. Isn't that the reason that so many back in the day suspected bo h Secretariat and Riva Ridge had been given steroids? http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1088264/2/index.htm
· 126 days ago ·
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shadowno
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Given the fact that both Street Sense and Hard Spun were competing against a chemically enhanced opponent one could easily say that either were the best of their generation rather than the steroid enhanced Curlin. Bear in mind Nafzger has never been suspended and Larry Jones has but one disputed 7 day ban. Asmussen is a recidivist cheat who has made a career out of cutting corners.
· 126 days ago ·
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cocoa2
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Mott's name still clean
· 126 days ago ·
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rafirox
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I agree, Street Sense should be given more credit. But, I think Curlin was a better horse.
· 126 days ago ·
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goblin
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shadowno, The anabolic steroids were legal and widely used in 2007. If Asmussen has had positives for them since their ban in 2008, I have not heard of it. (What else he has done, I don't truly know.) As I said above, Curlin absolutely raced free of any/all meds in Dubai, as required.
· 126 days ago ·
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gold n money
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What we don't know is how well SS would have done if he had continued racing. I think most people think higher of Curlin because he raced longer not necessarily better. We got to see him as a 4 year old. Had SS and Hard Spun continued I don't think he would have been quite as dominant.
· 126 days ago ·
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Purple Egg Looks Golden at Tampa Bay
Purple Egg, the gelding named for the way Goodwood Racing partner Sven Johnson's wife looked in a purple sweater while pregnant, looks well on his way to making the starting gate of the 2013 Kentucky Derby.
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136 days ago ·
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zatt
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The egg has quickly become one of the most popular horses on the Derby trail.
· 135 days ago ·
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Floridaf
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With his unusual name, it's hardly surprising. I'm ready to see him stretch out.
· 135 days ago ·
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jasen.mangrum
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I've heard that Tampa Bay paddock host Margo Flynn is also involved in the partnership of Purple Egg.
· 135 days ago ·
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AmbitiousD
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Lion Heart seems like one of the hottest sires for this year's sophomore class. I had no idea of the 2 unruly failed starts that led to the Egg being gelded, but if he continues to progress in his talent, I hope we see him healthy and racing for many years to come.
· 135 days ago ·
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Kentucky Derby Profiling
Let's take a look at some Kentucky Derby facts and trends to look out for as the 2013 road to the roses begins...
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176 days ago ·
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UnionRagsRules
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I've got it down to Bern Identity and Uncaptured.
· 176 days ago ·
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brooklyn.steve
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The new point system will make things interesting. Bobby should have to preps next year, main one being FL Derby. 1 bad break, and he can finish 3rd, or off the board. Will be waiting a longgg time to see who is my Derby pick. The key from this article is that you MUST have 2 preps the year of the race. Anything more than that, you take a pass on.
· 176 days ago ·
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DeadHeat
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I'd like uncaptured if he wasn't raced so much. 7 races, with 3 more before the Derby could leave him as a tired horse. Bern does fit, but if you're one to look at pedigree and how one has performed at two turns then he gives one reasons to be skeptical.
· 176 days ago ·
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UnionRagsRules
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Howcould you be skeptical at his performance? from last to first, in such a short time? You must face the facts, and that move he has could be the key in the Derby.
· 176 days ago ·
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bronzeprincess33
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I agree on the two-race angle; it looks as though that particular trend is here to stay.
· 176 days ago ·
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DeadHeat
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Dead closers very rarely win the KY. SS and MTB both ridden by Borel. Giacomo, stayed out of trouble and is the only recent one to take the overland route to win. The first two in this year's Derby both had speed. One stalked the other set the pace. That is more of a fact than believing a dead closer can win the race when most get stuck in too much traffic. Just look at Dialed In, Union Rags, Dullahan, Ice Box, i can go on and on. Again, another fact is to stay away from closers.
· 176 days ago ·
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travel_vic
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Just about every winner since I have recorded energy distribution has won as a sustained/presser, every one and many a favorite, who lost were later like Afleet Alex or earlier like Peace Rules 3rd
· 176 days ago ·
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travel_vic
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Only LATE winner in all that time? Secretariat with a median percentage down in the 66 range, but that one is all alone in many categories.
· 176 days ago ·
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UnionRagsRules
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DeadHeat, He's NOT a closer, but ended up being one that day, and has the grit to get through 19 other horses, and that's a fact.
· 176 days ago ·
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DeadHeat
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He will most likely end up being one, and the race you chose to use to make your point about having the right type of move was the race in which he closed. A horse can have grit. Doesn't mean they will win. Union Rags showed he was gritty in the Juvenile and Belmont, yet the traffic did him in, like most closers.
· 176 days ago ·
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DeadHeat
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and also, he has come from off the pace in most of his starts. This time he was farther back, placing wise than normal. When the paces get quicker he'll either fall farther out of it early, or he could get burned by the pace.
· 176 days ago ·
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UnionRagsRules
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Suree
· 176 days ago ·
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Mike in SB
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There is no question that horses are winning the Derby off of only two 3 year old preps, but I don't believe that is because it gives a horse an advantage, instead I believe it is because almost all the competition is doing the same thing. Most of the top trainers want 6 weeks between races today, it is hard to get in many races with that schedule. I must admit I don't understand this change. For decades horses ran much more often and with shorter time between races, remember that the Wood and Arkansas Derby used to be 2 weeks before the Derby and the Blue Grass used to be 10 days before the Derby. And it worked! Look at the schedule for the great 3 year olds of the 1970's. In the last seven years four Derby winners weren't able to complete the year and two others didn't win another race, only Street Sense had a good complete year. I always wonder what would happen if Woody Stephens or Charley Whittingham were around to train some of these top 3 year olds.
· 176 days ago ·
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goblin
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It should be really interesting to see how the trainers work the new point system into their Derby prep strategies. The closer to the date of the Derby, the higher the prep points become. I'm looking forward to seeing Palace Malice begin his 3y/o season in Florida--hoping he does well.
· 175 days ago ·
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Dressage3295
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same here goblin. I can't wait to see how PM does
· 175 days ago ·
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dani.pugh
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Mike, i would agree, but I believe most horses last year had three preps. 4 of the top 6 finishers did. I honestly thought that it would have to be a horse with three starts just because a vast majority of them had 3 starts. I also am looking forward to Palace Malice. Florida looks like a hot spot this year, though it did last year too before the defections and trainers looking for softer competition.
· 175 days ago ·
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railbird33
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I would like to see more inormation on how the NEW points system could determine which horses go into the gate on the first Saturday in May. IMO-that looms the largest in the 2013 3YO campaigns.
· 175 days ago ·
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dani.pugh
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railbird, i believe they estimated that a horse with 40 points should be able to make it. Last year i believe there was a chart made of the points each of the contenders would have earned as well as their earnings and both charts were relatively close. Not placing wise, but on which horses made the gate or not, the two were fairly similar. This does put more emphisis on the 3yr old season, but i wouldn't be surprised to see some of the top earners from this year make it in the field either.
· 175 days ago ·
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goblin
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railbird, I'm linking a chart showing the points assigned to the various prep races. Basically, as dani said, they estimate that ~40 points will get a horse into the gate. The early preps (BCJ) give only 10 points to the winner; the middle preps (Gotham, etc.) give 50 points; the final preps (Bluegrass, etc.) give 100 points. BH, DRF, and Paulick Report all have detailed information--it is easy to find via their sites or Google. Just Google "Kentucky Derby points system".http://www.brisnet.com/edgeped/roadto2013derby_oaks.pdf
· 175 days ago ·
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AllenJoyner
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If he stays sound, my money is on Normandy Invasion. Loved the sustained run from far, far back to lose by a nose in the Remsen. Has the look of a 10 furlong colt.
· 174 days ago ·
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illhaveanothertriplecrown
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I like him, know more and he's had enough. Those are who i have money on now.
· 174 days ago ·
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travel_vic
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Wager? about 25% of these or less will make it to the big dance the first Saturday in May TOPS!!
· 173 days ago ·
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dani.pugh
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Funny. Many promising 2011 juveniles made it to the Derby, even the Preakness and Belmont. It was after that we started to see the drop off.
· 173 days ago ·
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Armada
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The image used for this article fits very well with Animal Kingdom, Muchu Macho Man, and Shackleford all there. All whom have done so well since that picture was taken. And of course you cant discount Nehro, whom we will hopefully see next year. All top four finishers. I think it is a much stronger crop than I did back then.
· 173 days ago ·
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DeltaT
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I think with the new Kentucy Derby point system we will see a more often raced horse winning the Derby. At the same time we also may see points chasing/shipping more this Derby trail too with smaller barns and shallower pocket owners giving way to the bigger better funded connections.
· 165 days ago ·
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Derby Trends: BC Juvenile-Kentucky Derby Double
Is a Breeders’ Cup Juvenile Champion ready to wear the roses once again?
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195 days ago ·
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zatt
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Only 5 Kentucky Derby winners have even run in the Breeders' Cup Juvenile ... Wow!
· 195 days ago ·
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Monmouth
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The Road to the Kentucky Derby is long and difficult. Winning an Eclipse as a 2YO is clearly a goal for the earlier developing juveniles. If you think about it, to compete for that Eclipse Award and then survive to run in the Derby is a huge task.
· 195 days ago ·
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rafirox
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Fantastic article. I am quite shocked that onle five have ever started in the juvenile and won. I think the rarity of the double is the ability to continue to improve. Being the best two year old, then the best three year old his a hard task. The horse must keep improving in order to remain the best. I am in shock about that only five runners have ran in the juvi and win the derby. But I am not suprised about that only one has doubled. They improve at different rates. When they are two and three, some of them improve every race. Either with Baby Steps, or Leaps, until they reach their peak. Many horses peak at the right time, in May, others peak to early, or shall I say Bloom to early, not peak to early. The juvi winners are generally early bloomers, who are making the LEAPS early. Take their campagn as a HORSE RACE. An early bloomer is in the lead the whole race. They head for the stretch (PREPS) and the early bloomer's stride (Improvment) Is lowering..... A "Late" Bloomer will fly in and win at the finish line (The Derby) It is as simple as that. Don't get to high on Bobby at all, he has many of these aspects to "shorten his stride" come major prep season. Excellent article.
· 194 days ago ·
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ruffian65
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Great article Bryan! Very informative and certaintly a lot to ponder especially now when we have to throw in the new point system. It's such a hard road to the roses, wishing everyone a safe journey.
· 193 days ago ·
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ruffian75
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Good article, Bryan. A question that came to mind: There are only five to have won the Ky Derby after having ran in the Juvenile. If I recall, they don't seem to do much after that. Seems Street Sense took a back seat to Curlin, thereafter. I guess Alysheba would be the exception to this rule, but I would think that, for the most part, that if they pursue this road to the Derby, it might not go much further?
· 193 days ago ·
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kentuckyderbypost
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Ruffian75 - Fair point. Sea Hero raced as a 4 yr old but his best performance was a win in the Travers also at age 3. KY Derby was Mine That Bird’s last win, 0 for 9 after. Street Sense was retired after his 3-yr-old season but not before winning the Jim Dandy and Travers. Alysheba is the exception, raced at age 4 and won the BC Classic along with 5 other Grade 1 races.
· 193 days ago ·
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Street Sense
Adios US, Konichiwa Japan : http://bloodstock.racingpost.com/news/bloodstock/street-sense-to-continue-stud-career-in-japan
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yukichan
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213 days ago ·
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travel_vic
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SLowly but surely the center of the racng world moves steadily Eastward.
· 213 days ago ·
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goblin
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That may be true. The Japanese are acquiring some good stallions, and their band of broodmares (many previously N. American) is stellar.
· 213 days ago ·
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travel_vic
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Just wait until the sleeping giant, MAIN LABD China starts wagering on horse racing.......A wholesale shift will be upon us and upon quickly too
· 212 days ago ·
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Armada
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Well this is unexpected. WTH.
· 212 days ago ·
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LAZMANNICK
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Slowly but surely greed is killing Horse racing in N/A as we know it.
· 212 days ago ·
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Armada
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Agreed, Laz.
· 212 days ago ·
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Buckpasser
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Greed certainly is a part, but breeder stupidity is also a part. The breeders today are poor shadows of the great ones of the past who imported top Euros into the States to improve the lines we had here with great success.
· 212 days ago ·
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travel_vic
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It screams to allow artificial insemination so that genetic material could be excahnged across continents. If I were at the TOBA, I would suggest a breeding "experiment" for 20 years to allow stamina or speed (take your pick) material to be transferred that way and see the results in that experimental group.
· 212 days ago ·
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AmbitiousD
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tv, I'm not sure AI would work. Think of the fraud opportunity.
· 212 days ago ·
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travel_vic
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NOT in a limimted CONTROLLED atmosphere. It has workd well in the standard bred for years now with NO evidence of fraud that I have ever heard and I have asked the judges repeatedly about this. THey laugh and just say that the T-bred people are far behind in the breeding game not having the opportunity for example, for a Canadian bred to cross with a Swedish bred without the expense of moving either of the contributors and inch.
· 212 days ago ·
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kay.robinett
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I would rather see very limited and VERY controlled AI with many restrictions (such as a total number of foals allowed either by live cover AND AI per stallion per year) than have stallions having to go through the rigors of twice yearly intercontinental travel. It must be controlled rigorously however to prevent a glut of horses which could well be someday unwanted and ending up at kill pens. It should also be used to produce genetic diversity in the breed rather than to concentrate all of the world's bloodstock into just a few sirelines (which is already starting to happen).
· 212 days ago ·
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travel_vic
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STARTING to happen?
· 212 days ago ·
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Buckpasser
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In rereading the article, Street Sense is standing for one season 2013 at the Darley Farm in Japan from having stood at the Darley Farm in KY. This appears to me to be a relocation to improve his book of mares and increase his top progeny. AI would be a help certainly, but I always assumed that the reason it wasn't done was there would be a decrease in the stud fees charged. After all most of the harness horse stud fees are far less than theTB ones.
· 212 days ago ·
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Street Sense
Another good one gone to Japan. We certainly like sending our good up and coming studs to Japan, don't we? At least he is with Darley, so there still is that chance that he could come back to the US. In all of the years that I have been around, I have never seen so much of our best stock being sent to Japan, and other foreign countries (mostly Japan though). I would not be suprised if Havre De Grace was sold to Japan, since they like to buy all of our best mares as well. I probably stand alone in believing this, but I think that since Japan buys some of our best stock, we should do the same with theirs. North American breeders seem to be "terrified" of the thought of buying Japanese bred (or European bred) horses. I hate to say it, but the Japanese are breeding and buying better stock than we are. Oh well.
Posted by
theprodigy34
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213 days ago ·
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zenyatta mondatta
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Darley ships some of their horses around from time to time. So , this is not unusual. At least , he's with Darley.
· 212 days ago ·
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Street Sense
He has had some nice winners in Japan. A relocation from one Darley farm in KY to one in Japan makes perfect sense. The Japanese are importing sires that they think will greatly enhance their breeding and racing operations. I say good for them
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Buckpasser
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213 days ago ·
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Breeders Cup Classic: Curlin, King of the Titans
“And Curlin is POWERHOUSING home! In the Race of the Year, for Horse of the Year, it’s all Curlin, in an absolutely STYLISH performance!”
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217 days ago ·
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brooklyn.steve
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An all time great. It's a shame his only out of the money finish was because the BC made the awful decision to run on the synthetic surface and give dirt horses no chance. Outside of that he had a 3rd in The KY Derby and the Haskell, where he could only be beaten by other top 3yos. Have not seen a horse like him since. Horse of the Year, and the Decade by far.
· 217 days ago ·
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DeadHeat
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He was Horse of the Decade for me. No horse as solid as he was against the level of competition he faced. He also was good enough to run second in a grade one over turf. Not many horses that are as dominant on dirt are able to transfer that to the turf like he did. Feb 2007 he was no more than a maiden and by Jan 2008 he was HOTY. Amazing horse.
· 217 days ago ·
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travel_vic
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I have several freinds who saw what I did: a maxed out performance by Curlin in the middle of the summer and slight, but obvious form down swint going into the fall. Surface change did not help, but that was not the only factor at work.
· 217 days ago ·
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LAZMANNICK
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Curlin was always one of my favorites along with Ghostzapper, Smarty Jones and Zenyatta. As much as I like him I don’t consider him the horse of the decade. I don’t think he was close to being the equal of Ghostzapper who defeated two Dubai World Cup winners as well as two BCC winners and HOY Azeri. In the three common distances they both ran, 7F, 9F and 10F, Ghostzapper ran each distance faster. And seeing how Rags dueled him into defeat in the Belmont, I shudder to think what Zenyatta would have done if the two would have met.
· 217 days ago ·
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DeadHeat
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Laz, Ghostzapper was undoubtably the most brilliant, and HOTD is a matter of opinion and is subjective. For me its not just about speed and brilliance. If it was Zapper would be there. I chose Curlin because he faced the best on several occasions and never once was taken out due to injury. He was fast, maybe not the fastest, but still fast and was a true Classic horse. I feel he had the best overall record. Had talent, he faced the best, held up extremely well over the course of his career, he just had it all. Wher horses like Zapper had the brilliance but not the surdiness, Zenyatta brilliant, one could argue sturdy, but didn't face the best and rarely traveled. Also, remember that the Belmont was after he had just run two grueling races, and was on his fourth race in 8 weeks. Rags was much more rested at the time. On Zenyatta, you already know my opinions on that, so I won't bother getting into an old debate that nobody wins.
· 217 days ago ·
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AndyScoggin
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I was there for those cold wet BC days at Monmouth and there was some great performances, including Curlin. I hope Monmouth gets another chance to host the BC in 2014. I assume that the BC will be at Santa Anita in 2013 again.
· 217 days ago ·
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travel_vic
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Monmouth got a bad rep because of therain (their crew had that track as well as it could be under the circumstances), hte MAJOR breakdown and euthanasia of the European horse, and marginal TV coverage. ESPN has done a very poor job of it.
· 217 days ago ·
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DeadHeat
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it was not Monmouth's fault for George Washington. That is belongs to his connections. Their horse and they decided to run for whatever reason instead of withdrawing, which would have been in his best interest that day. I agree the track was as good as could be that day.
· 217 days ago ·
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goblin
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Curlin's Belmont against Rags was at 1 1/2 miles, a distance at which Zenyatta never even started. How can anyone shudder to think that Rags' narrow victory over a tired Curlin at that distance has any comparison value at all. Curlin did not start until Feb. of his 3y/o season and managed to complete that year and ship to Dubai soon after the BCC win. He then carried 132lbs. in his Dubai prep for the World Cup and coasted to the winner's circle. BTW, that Belmont loss was closely following his record in the Preakness. He never had one hint of an injury during his campaign. He is absolutely deserving of his Horse of the Decade designation by BH's Steve Haskin.
· 217 days ago ·
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Mike in SB
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Curlin as Horse of the Decade is interesting. I personally don't think he was the best older male, I would put Ghostzapper and Invasor above him and I would put him behind Point Given and maybe Smarty and Afleet Alex as 3 year olds. But he is the only horse to put two very good years together and that probably does make him the Horse of the Decade. As for the Breeders Cup at Monmouth, it has to be the most disappointing I have ever attended. The weather was terrible, especially Friday, and George Washington breaking down right in front of the stands ruined it for me. But I liked the track and the area and maybe they will get another chance.
· 217 days ago ·
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goblin
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Ghostzapper started 11 times over a three year period with gaps of 6 months between races frequently. Curlin raced 16 times in two seasons with 9 starts as a 3y/o. There were no gaps for "R&R" or injury.
· 217 days ago ·
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DeadHeat
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Mike, on talent Zapper would have been ahead of him, but body of work again is it for me and only Invasor, IMO could be put above him in that area as an older horse. He only ran in four races in 06, but all grade ones and the four races were over the course of about 5 1/2 months. It sucks that he didn't get a complete season in 08, I would have loved to see him agains LR in the Whitney and against the BCC lot that year. Zapper, again brilliant but was raced too sparingly for my taste. Also the fact that you mentioned, Curlin have two full, complete, and very successful years helps him a great deal in my mind. He made a great deal of history in 07 and 08.
· 217 days ago ·
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footlick
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IMO, Curlin would have never beaten Ghostzapper, no matter what distance they ran. If you want to hold Ghostzapper's soundness issues against him then you do. But he was the more brilliant of the two and , IMO, the better of the two
· 217 days ago ·
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footlick
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I will go with which horse I feel was better. Longevity is nice but does not make the horse better
· 217 days ago ·
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goblin
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I would submit that longevity is more than "nice" when soundness is the basis for it. Of course you can "feel" GZ was the better horse. IMO Curlin's resume is much more substantial.
· 217 days ago ·
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footlick
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As I said, you can hold Ghostzapper's soundness issues against him. I can also "feel" how many widening lengths Curlin would have finished behind Ghostzapper too.
· 217 days ago ·
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DeadHeat
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Footlick, Curlin's two season's trump that of Zapper's one. Brilliant, easily the most brilliant horse of the decade, but Curlin was far more accomplished and due to his ability to stay sound he was able to race more often giving him the resume he compiled. One can always think one horse is better, but if they never met, you can't actually know, meaning you then go by body of work. Curlin has that in spades.
· 217 days ago ·
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footlick
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You value body of work. I value brilliance. I believe Ghostzapper would have easily defeated Curlin on the track. I think Curlin was a talented horse, but certainly, just my opinion, not the best of the Decade. So I could never say he was the best. Ghostzapper had soundness issues. So, people hold that against him. To me, he was pounds better than Curlin. But, we all have our opinion.
· 217 days ago ·
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goblin
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I am not holding soundness against GZ, nor am I the only one who has mentioned his gaps on this thread. I am saying that Curlin's soundness is a most positive attribute, especially in this day of weeping and wailing over the lack thereof in our North American horses/stallions. I find the use of the word "feel" a bit odd here. You can have any opinion you want, as can anyone on the blog, but Curlin's more substantial record is just that.
· 217 days ago ·
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travel_vic
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Great line from the movie Balde Runner: "The light that shines twice as bright burns half as long."
· 217 days ago ·
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footlick
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Since my use of the word "feel" seems odd now, I think I'll let you factual people continue this thread. Have a great day.
· 217 days ago ·
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CauseForConcern
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Ghostzapper was good. Street Cry was another that his on his way to greatness, but his career was shortened. As for Curlin, I really enjoyed his run. And running with Street Sense and Hard Spun, those three always were near the top. One special shout-out goes to Helen Pitt. She brought Curlin along, and when he annihilated his foes in his maiden win, she would lose him. Thanks, Helen, for being a part of this colt's run.
· 216 days ago ·
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AndyScoggin
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Dani--There is much to know and read about the breakdown of George Washington. There is a controversial book that talks about it. Clearly, there is more to it than his connections making a bad decison to run him in the race.
· 216 days ago ·
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CauseForConcern
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Since you bring up the topic of George Washington, isn't it ironic that the same people that bred George Washington also bred Barbaro?
· 216 days ago ·
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footlick
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Curlin was never, ever a better horse. Look at both of their thoro-graph numbers, ragozin numbers and Beyer numbers. A long career does not make a better horse. It makes a horse who ran for a longer amount of time. If It is going to be commented on as to me "feeling" , then I will give you the reasons why I " feel" that way. By all accounts Ghostzapper would have run away from Curlin, using three different speed figures.
· 216 days ago ·
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LAZMANNICK
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Not considering Zenyatta brilliant is a joke at best. Anjy horse that can run the final mile in a 10F race in 1.33.1 and win a BCC to boot is brilliant.
· 216 days ago ·
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dani.pugh
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Laz, don't know who said anything about Zenyatta not being brilliant. She could be, when given the chance. Footlick, chill. As you said in your post before this last rant, it is a matter of opinion. You bring up number, which are all well and good but all have flaws, especially when going from year to year to year. The two horses never met, so, for me I go to their body of work. I believe Curlin's is better, and i think many would agree. You go by brilliance, and not many would argue that Ghostzapper was the most brilliant. It just depends on what you consider most important.
· 216 days ago ·
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footlick
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Laz- we aren't going there again, are we-lol.
· 216 days ago ·
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footlick
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First of all, I don't need to be told to chill, as I feel I do not rant half as much as many on here. Secondly, my comment was for goblin, who seemed to infer that I somehow was not using anything factual, where as he was. That you felt the need to chime in is interesting. Thirdly, if there was little difference between Curlin's and Ghostzapper's figures, or just one number was vastly superior or only one system rated him superior, I might think otherwise. But three vastly different speed rating systems have Ghostzapper clearly much superior tells me that the horse was better, and not slightly better but quite a bit better. And I think Jerry Brown might have something to say about being able to use his numbers to compare horses of different years. That you and goblin feel that body work is the most important is your right. But, it does not make a horse better no matter how much you or anyone else professes that it does. You can never say Curlin was a better horse, because it is false. He was not a better horse. He had a longer career. That is important to you. Being a better horse is important to me. But, to be clear, my comment was not meant for you but to the person who was bothered by my use of the word "feel". And I am now defending what I said, not "ranting", just, again, to be clear. As Icy would say, "Have a great night". As I would say, "this has now become boring and tedious." Have fun
· 216 days ago ·
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BrianAppleton
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I love it Dani, so good!! Those memories are some of my best...I was standing on my seat screaming him on at the top of my lungs as he thundered past me...if there's one day I could live over again right now it would be that day when I was at Monmouth. Go Curlin! :)
· 216 days ago ·
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LAZMANNICK
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You've got me laughing Footlick. Of course we're not going there. As for Dani saying that Curlin met better, wow, I don’t think so, and this from a fan who at times felt like I would be physically ill whenever he raced. Curlin faced a few really good horses in Street Sense, Rags to Riches, (three year olds not older) and the Ill-fated George Washington. Others like Hard Spun (one G1 win at 7F), Any Given Saturday who defeated him in the Haskell (his only G1 win), Lawyer Ron who won the Whitney and Woodward against moderate fields and who took 22 starts to win his first G1; all these cannot be considered great, at least for an over-all career. His Dubai World Cup win was against one of the weaker fields in the event. Asiatic Boy who was second never won a Group One or G1 race in his career. Well Armed would eventually win a World Cup but he also lost six G2 and G3 races in his career. In the meantime Ghostzapper defeated two World Cup winners plus two HOY winners plus two BCC winners, ran extremely fast 6F, 6.5F,7F, 8F, 9F and 10F races and was credited with one of the highest Beyers all time. I love Curlin but he never ran against the overall quality of horses that Ghostzapper did.
· 216 days ago ·
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footlick
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Laz, Laz. I'm sure it is better if I just don't comment at all.
· 216 days ago ·
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LAZMANNICK
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Footlick I would rather discuss those big three in the late sixties, Dr. Fager, Damascus and Buckpasser. Now they give me chills.
· 216 days ago ·
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icyhotboo
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Buckpasser covered ground in a way I've never seen in another horse. The phrase "quick turn of foot" doesn't do him justice.BTW: I was at Aqueduct when the three of them ran in the Woodward. Both Buckpasser and Damascus entered rabbits to offset Dr. Fagers speed. It was Buckpasser's last race, he suffered from nagging injuries his whole career and still won 15 in a row against the best. On that particular day I don't think it mattered as Damascus was at the top of his form and was just awsome. He's another with the "quick turn of foot. · Dr. Fager was my favorite, but Buckpasser injury free giving 100% was a match for the three reds.
· 216 days ago ·
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LAZMANNICK
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Right on ICy. Some great memories for sure.
· 216 days ago ·
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Mary Z.
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I call a little skewing. Didn't Ghostzapper beat St Liam by only a neck in that super fast '04 Woodward? St Liam was not a grade 1 winner at that point. He was an allowance winner and grade 2 placed. He would become in/for '05 a grade 1 winner, BCC winner and HOTY . I mean, it goes the other way, too, saying Lawyer Ron took 22 starts to win a grade 1(was it 23?), or it could be put more positively, he won at his fourth try at a grade 1. 1:46.64 for that 1st grade 1 win in the '07 Whitney. Lawyer Ron took the Woodward, too. I'd be tempted to be generous and say Curlin beat him when he was at his best. Who knows, maybe Lawyer Ron didn't like Churchill, turf or slop. See how this generous thing goes? And nothing doing saying Curlin beat Well Armed that "eventually became a DWC winner", if Roses In May gets to be included as a DWC winner that Ghostzapper beat. When Ghostzapper raced Roses In May, Roses In May was the winner of a single grade 1, the '04 Whitney. Idk about putting Azeri in there two years after her HOTY campaign, but then it's not my skew and I throw in all kinds of points to build my case for my favs. You guys are fun, and I learn a lot, even when there are hissy fits and people having their times otm.
· 216 days ago ·
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LAZMANNICK
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As for those gaps in Ghostzapper's career Goblin, that's a good point. I think that it’s in credible that a horse in three successive years can run 6F in 1.09.1 off a 6-month layoff with a final quarter in 23.1; 7F in 1.20.2 off a 10-month layoff with a final 3/8ths in 35.4; and a mile in 1.33.1 after a 7-month layoff with a final quarter in 24.4 and winning by 6 ½ eased up. The fact that he wasn’t sound and that Bobby Frankel touts him as the best he ever trained speaks loads of his raw abilities, without question the most talented male horse in N/A this millennium.
· 216 days ago ·
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footlick
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I'm just going by numbers and who they point to as the better horse. Two foreign rating systems also ranked them in their best years. Timeform gave Ghostzapper a 137 to Curlin's 134. Racing Post gave Ghostzapper a 135 to Curlin's 131. And just to be fair, IWTR gave each a 130 in their best year. But, not that it means anything.
· 216 days ago ·
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footlick
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Laz and Icy- they were amazing.
· 216 days ago ·
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footlick
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Of course we could talk about Zarkava......, but no. Brief body of work but brilliant.
· 216 days ago ·
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dani.pugh
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laz, I never said Curlin faced better than zapper. I was actually referring to zenyatta. I think overall he faced better than her on a more consistent basis. footlick when you get your panties boxers or whatever in a bunch over what is essentially a very subjective topic them you do need to chill. I like body of work. you like brilliance. if you were really ok with that you wouldn't be making sore childish remarks.
· 216 days ago ·
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footlick
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Ms Pugh, as obviously, sine you are lecturing me, I don't feel I have the right to call you Dani, maybe you should re-read all the comments you have made site wide before you lecture anybody. I have not said one personal or insulting thing. I have supported my point of view with not one set of numbers, which could be refuted, not two sets of numbers, which still could be brushed aside, but Beyer, Ragozin, Thoro-graph, Timeform and Racing Post, which the first three had Ghostzapper consistently running better numbers, and the other two from Europe rating both horses best race and having Ghostzapper better. I apologize if that doesn't concur with what you wrote. I apologize if I am not supposed to support it with some sort of passion and get peeved when goblin said that they had trouble with my use of the word "feel". I'm sorry that you felt you had to make two pointed comments at me, when I didn't direct my comments to you, as I said previously. Since it seems you have a problem with me and with my comments, I will make sure I don't comment on your threads or posts. This site regularly has people who are far more emotional and abusive in their language than I am, but you decided to single out me. You won't have to do that anymore.
· 216 days ago ·
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Zenyatta-Perfection Personified
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Street Sense was my boy, and I (sadly) held it against Curlin whenever he beat Sense, but I have a huge amount of respect for him. He had all the things today's horses seem to be lacking - stamina, soundness, world-travelling ability, and speed.
· 216 days ago ·
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goblin
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footlick---This is almost amusing at this point... First of all, I'm not a "he", I'm a female--that's just for clarification. I simply did not understand the use of the word "feel", when it seemed cognition was required, meaning "think" or "believe" might fit the situation better. Secondly, you brought the longevity into the conversation and I commented on longevity/soundness. I do not and did not hold anything against GZ; I simply noticed and pointed out the gaps in his record. Curlin was on the track only two years--2007 and 2008. GZ ran (I'm doing this from memory) 2002, 2003, 2004, and 1 or 2 races in 2005 I think; so I'm not clear on how Curlin had a longer career. I would not say he had longevity; I would say he packed much successful racing into a relatively brief career actually. That was my point in listing their numbers of starts in one of my original comments above. I will stand by my statement that Curlin had a more substantial career. By definition that would mean more "solid, strong, or firm" among other usages. You could call it his substantial body of work as Dani characterized it. I would consider Curlin the Horse of the Decade and was pleased when Haskin came to that conclusion as well. His reasoning is easy to locate via the BH search site, and included such things as the difficulty of Curlin's 3y/o campaign, no starts at age 2, and his extreme consistency. You certainly do not have to believe that Curlin is a better horse, and I don't think I ever used those specific words on this thread. BTW LAZ, my heart nearly beat out of my chest during his Dubai World Cup start.
· 216 days ago ·
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Age of Reason
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Footlick is the only one on this thread I've seen who has backed up his opinion with multiple valid sources. Have some class, Dani! You're giving me eery reminders of the She-lost-get-over yellow journalism we used to have to put up with on BloodHorse...
· 216 days ago ·
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Mary Z.
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JC, It's all there at equibase and videos, not like it's a secret. Get some fresh air. The Tapit foal will appreciate it, AoR.
· 216 days ago ·
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dani.pugh
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age backed up how? numbers? they are subjective and have flaws, especially when compared nearly five years apart. the only way to have known is for them to have faced and they did not. you can not back up he was better based off of numbers only. you can have opinion, same as I do as in regards to body of work but you can't be sure. Curlin accomplished more. resume side by side that can't be argued. footlick basest his opinion off of brilliance and that is fine, but to get in a huff over somebody not agreeing with you when neither have solid facts to say one was better than the other is pointless. then to get in a huff at me for saying to chill and explaining why, is classless. f you want to pick out where I packed class in asking one to chill, be my guest. being blunt is not rude. you do not see me crying just because he disagrees with me? you do not see me saying I will never speak to him again. I have different qualifications, therefore a different opinion, big deal. I'll debate facts with you, what a horse did our didn't accomplish, but i'm not going to get upset and worried by debating opinions that are based off of individual preferences or feelings.
· 216 days ago ·
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footlick
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interesting. Now I'm classless. And I didn;t even say it. And you wonder why I am baffled by being singled out when you are allowed to say things like this about me? I don't even need to say anything else.
· 216 days ago ·
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footlick
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I never said you were classless. Who are you to criticize me, period?
· 216 days ago ·
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footlick
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Please just stop mentioning me. I will defend myself if I am going to be insulted, but I would rather not, so please do not mention me. Period.
· 216 days ago ·
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dani.pugh
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footlick. read.I didn't say you called me classless. and also this is not high school. I will mention whoever I want. i'm not going to hide. if you'd like to comment be my guest if you do not care then don't. by the way my comments were not pointed. until my last to you I was not lecturing. I was simply telling you it want worth your time to debate what you like vs what another person does because it is way to subjective. I hope that clears it up for you.
· 216 days ago ·
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footlick
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"Then to get in a huff at me for saying to chill and explaining why, is classless" . Please read your own post before saying you did not call me classless.
· 216 days ago ·
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footlick
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I said that I didn't call you classless because you called me classless in the part of your statement that I put in quotes. It may be paraphrased though. That you again felt the need to do something like call what I did classless speaks volumes.
· 216 days ago ·
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dani.pugh
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footlick, that was not me saying that you called me classless. I actually called your actions classless with that sentence. I never said you called me that. age of reasons did, which is why I used that choice of words. I believe the actions are more childish than classless. I say actions because typically you'reone of the sanest most reasonable posters, yet on a matter that is based purely of opinion and preference you get upset. for a person who is typically very level headed you haven't been which again is why I initially said you should chill, because to debate person preference is not worth getting so upset about.
· 216 days ago ·
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LAZMANNICK
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Mary correction. I’m not throwing any hissy fits, AT LEAST NOT YET!!, just joking. I am having trouble though in trying to see how Well Armed, Street Sense, Hard Spun, Lawyer Ron, Asiatic Boy and Wanderin Boy were better horses and had better overall careers than Roses in May, Saint Liam, Pleasantly Perfect, Perfect Drift and Azeri. The overall records of the final five actually dwarf the overall records of the first six, which is proven by their number of G1 wins, BCC wins, HOY title, and World Cup victories, Perfect Drift might have only won a single G1 but he finished 2nd in G1 races to Roses in May and Pleasantly Perfect and won his G1 against multi G1 winner and HOY Mineshaft…...Then take a look at that Woodward that Saint Liam ran. He was head and head and bumped many times in a roughly run race with fractions of 45.3, 108.3, 1.33.1, and 1.46.1 and this while carrying 126 lbs. The race he ran that day would have buried those first six and. Sad to say, Curlin. After that race he then won the G2 Clark against a good field, and the G1’s Donn, Foster, Woodward and BCC and lost the Whitney when finishing second by a neck to Commentator (when this one was in his prime) and still received a 123 Beyer. Yes it took him a while to get his first G1 win but it should be noted that his trainer for his first 8 races was Anthony Reinstedler, not a big league trainer in the sense of his following trainers, Richard Dutrow, and Bobby Frankel. As for the rest, their records and accomplishments speak for themselves.
· 216 days ago ·
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dani.pugh
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laz again I never said he faced better than ghostzapper. the comment was in referenceto zenyattas competition vs Curlins.
· 216 days ago ·
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Mary Z.
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Oh, I only chirped in really since the wonderful Brian Appleton said how much he liked Curlin, but as long as the debate horses don't get credit for beating HOTYs or BCC winners or DWC winners AFTER they faced them, then I'll just be a voyeur here. That one person sorta ticked me off though. Wish everyone would use the same names all over. I do tire of checking sentence structure, misuse of past participles, etc. On your subject though, Laz, would you say that Roses In May got better after facing Ghostzapper and that Azeri was at her best a year or so before facing Ghostzapper? These are actual questions, not meant to be leading or disrespectful.
· 216 days ago ·
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Mary Z.
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To clarify, as long as the debate horses don't get credit for beating horses that won those races/awards after they faced Ghostzapper or Curlin.
· 216 days ago ·
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LAZMANNICK
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Mary you're probably right about Azeri though I don't think in her prime she would have beaten Roses in May or Saint Liam in their prime and she wasn’t as good as Curlin. As for Saint Liam in that Woodward, it's my contention that he was every bit as good when he ran in that race as he was at any time in his career so the fact that was the race that probably defined how good he would be, IMO he was really, really good that day, as good as when he won the BCC. I’m also not being fair when I talk about Street Sense and Hard Spun as unfortunately we never got to see them run be at four. In truth, I probably like Curlin more than I did Ghostzapper, (both actually got under my skin much like Northern Dancer, Dr. Fager and Zenyatta did) but I don’t think he was anywhere close to being as good as the Ghost. Unfortunately, because of injuries, we never got to see how really good he was even though his career, as is, was stellar.
· 216 days ago ·
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Mary Z.
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I agree about Ghostzapper being brilliant when he could run. Now here's an interesting(to me) question. Would more horses also show such brilliance if raced as sparingly? I do think there's something to be said on the positive side about being a consistent(and top-notch) winner through a longer campaign or career.
· 216 days ago ·
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LAZMANNICK
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Mary, in answer to your question, IMO there are pros and cons about racing sparingly. Back in the day it was basically taboo to run a good horse sparingly and in preparation for many of their big races they even ran in preps and had a limitless string of workouts, sometimes several in one week. I guess that we could relate that to breeding and overall soundness. In this day soundness is definitely a major issue. Horses don’t work all that often, rarely engage in preps for big races and have relatively short careers such as Blame, Creative Cause, Quality Road, etc. and etc. It is common now to see horses run after a lengthily layoff such as DeHoss in his two BC Turf Scores, Gilded Time in back-to-back BC races (of his first five career races, two were BC races) and now Animal Kingdom going to the BC Turf Mile off a long layoff and also coming off a troublesome injury. Less wear and tear seems to be the theme now while back in the day it was work, work, work. Both styles seem to be successful given the times.
· 216 days ago ·
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Mary Z.
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Yah, in general, I don't like sparingly,Laz, but then I have had favorites that had gaps due to injury/layoffs. Maybe I'm thinking of things that make one go, inh, but on a much slower/lesser scale, such as Pool Play coming along and rather embarrassing stakes fields with his "upset" long shot wins. About Animal Kingdom in the BC Turf, while I'm for the Cali turf milers on their "home" course, there is something about the power that comes through in the photos and videos of AK since he's been in training again at Fair Hill. Not saying he'll win, but that he belongs in the Mile field. Different kind of works in those Fair Hill fields.
· 216 days ago ·
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Mary Z.
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No decision yet on AK's jockey, but they should try to get Dominguez or offer some incentive to get Velazquez off of Wise Dan. AK might be pulling with his mouth wide open after all the time off.
· 216 days ago ·
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LAZMANNICK
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I agree about Animal Kingdom. Even though his biggest win was at 10F I truly believe that he’ll excel in that Mile Turf race. He is a very powerful horse with a good burst of speed, IMO qualities that are necessary to win at a mile. I believe that he, along with Wise Dan, give us our best chance to win this race in quite some time. And that’s not to say that another N/A horse couldn’t step up, especially on the Santa Anita course which should be lightening fast.
· 216 days ago ·
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Mary Z.
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That hill is already blazing fast, Laz. I expect a record in the Turf Sprint. Have to see how the turf races go this weekend on the regular course.
· 216 days ago ·
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Age of Reason
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I'm through with this argument, and only commented originally because I felt Footlick had been singled out merely for using the comments page as it was designed--to disagree. If you want a good argument, head over to BloodHorse and read the brilliant article by Steve Haskin, in rebuttal of Beyer's piece at DRF which argued that the American thoroughbred is in decline. The first commenter was from Europe, and referred to "second-string horses like Rachel Alexandra [and] Zenyatta", so I'd say the fight is on...
· 216 days ago ·
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ruffian75
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Hi, Laz. I know you were discussing horses that are on the shelf for a long period of time, and then begin to resume their career. One horse that I would like to throw into that debate, is Flat Out. He was on the shelf for an extended period time in the midst of his 3-year-old campaign. He resumed his career, and has shown up at times. The owners decided to turn him over to the guidance of William Mott. Mott's had (I think) three races with him. If everything is going according to plan with Mott, he might be showing up at Santa Anita for his best effort? Anyhow, that's my best for the prognostication game. Watch out for Flat Out.
· 216 days ago ·
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Mary Z.
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I'll butt in with a big like for Flat Out and Bill Mott. Agreeing with ruffian75 to watch out for a better finish than last year for Flat Out--I'm adding that part. I gotta use G.O.D. on top in the BCC, too, though.
· 216 days ago ·
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LAZMANNICK
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Age of Reason, I read some of those responses. My answer to them is probably best described by good old Forrest Gump: “stupid is what stupid is”. These people shouldn’t in any way be described as knowledgeable. They’re bandwagon jumpers who just like to jump on the next bandwagon that comes along.
· 215 days ago ·
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LAZMANNICK
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Ruffian75, good to hear from you and I hope all is well. I’ve always been hard on Flat Out in the past, sometimes probably justifiably so and at others probably without justification. I don’t think Flat Out was thought of as being an upper echelon horse early on in his career, but here he is, a back-to-back winner of what was once America’s premier fall race. When he’s on and when he is positioned properly in a race he can run with any horse that’ll probably be entered in the BCC. Two things to consider: how will he run in California as opposed to his favorite track back east; and if the track is hard, which it might be, how will it affect his feet? As for Mott, IMO and for many other’s as well, he’s as good or better than any trainer in America and has been for years so you can bet he’ll run in the race properly prepared and with the right running strategy.
· 215 days ago ·
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Mary Z.
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I read all of your gossipy crap at BH, AoR. Way to stick to the subject, and I do not agree with your perceptions, btw. Now I have no shame about having my pets, though, so thanks for the freedom.
· 215 days ago ·
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Mary Z.
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Annoyingly haughty username. Go ahead and "yell" at me and tell me how people don't like me. Ouch.
· 215 days ago ·
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Mary Z.
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And if you think it's such an Amateur Hour around here, well?
· 215 days ago ·
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Mary Z.
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You pissed me off, AoR, and that takes some doing. I happen to like this blog writer's unbiased approach about facts. One does however allow for opinion.
· 215 days ago ·
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Mary Z.
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Another thing is, I wouldn't dream of offering such silliness for that particular BH blog as you did.
· 215 days ago ·
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footlick
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he responded to me as I thanked him for his comment, which you must realize if you read the BH blog comments. I brought the subject up. And there are points of his that are valid. But you are always liked by me.
· 215 days ago ·
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footlick
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that comment was for Mary Z., just to be clear.
· 215 days ago ·
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Mary Z.
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He? I thought AoR is like a 53 yo woman with the hots for you footy. My mistake. He? Really? Yah, Your comment was okay, footy. Hers was gossipy. He? You're puttin' me on.
· 215 days ago ·
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footlick
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Mary Z.- I used he as a universal, like ils in French. I don;t know i AoR is a man or woman actually. As far as the comments about the site in general, I do have to say there were some that rang true, at least in my experience. But, I don't come here for serious information either. There are people here that I enjoy and people I don't, just like in life. You are one of the enjoyable people. Tried to comment earlier, but got shut out by the site maintenance. Anyway, I have to go finish a painting. Have a good night.
· 215 days ago ·
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Mary Z.
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I like you and this website, footy. Latest news is here, and some people are dead serious-you know who :)
· 215 days ago ·
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icyhotboo
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ruffian75, thanks for the comment concerning Flat Out. Somehow it slipped my mind how well his progression has gone. Mott is one of my favorite trainers.
· 215 days ago ·