Horse Racing Nation – The fan-powered horse racing community

Photo: Charles Pravata/Eclipse Sportswire

Game On Dude Begins Campaign in San Antonio

Breeders' Cup Classic runner-up Game On Dude kicks off his much anticipated 2012 campaign in Sunday's Grade 2 San Antonio at Santa Anita Park. Read More

Photo: Cynthia Lum/ZumaPress/Eclipse Sportswire

Liaison, Rousing Sermon Meet Again in Lewis

Liaison and Rousing Sermon meet for the third time in Saturday's Grade 2 Robert Lewis Stakes at Santa Anita Park. Read More

Can Anyone Catch Tapizar in Strub Stakes?

Impressive San Fernando winner Tapizar shoots for back-to-back wins at Santa Anita Park in Saturday's Strub Stakes. Read More

Photo: Aaron Haggart/Eclipse Sportswire

Algorithms Pedigree Profile - An Exciting New Discovery

Let’s check the pedigree to determine if Algorithms fits the profile for a Classic winner... Read More

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Point/Counterpoint: Mucho Macho Man vs. Awesome Feather

Which fan favorite shone brightest on Sunshine Millions day - Awesome Feather or Mucho Macho Man? Read More

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What the Horse Racing Nation is talking about...

Native Dancer

Amazing horse, would have wanted to see match race with Tom Fool!

Posted by LarryDickson · 352 days ago ·

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icyhotboo · that would have been something. both great ones. · 352 days ago ·

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cocoa2 · I hope it would end more like Biscuit and Admiral and not Ruffian and Pleasure! · 9 hours ago ·

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icyhotboo · @cocoa2, since it was 57 years ago I don't see any reason for you to lose sleep over one of them getting hurt as their both dead! · 38 minutes ago ·

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Beyer Baffles

After seeing the Gulfstream Beyer Speed Figures, after witnessing the endless adjustments and tinkering that took place, I am left shaking my head. Read More

Posted 1 day ago ·

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stevebiscuit · Beyers would have to be the most overused, overrated tools used in handicapping. Anyone who thinks you can assign a single number to sum up a horse's performance knows little about racing. · 1 day ago ·

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cpsoren121 · Good call Dani. I don't think there will ever be a perfect system. If there was, then I could just wager on racing as a full-time job!! · 1 day ago ·

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Mary Z. · DH, Do you have any more info on the adjusted fractions for the Holy Bull? What I'd like to know is if the final eighth was faster using the Trackus system, because that would make Algorithms win more impressive. · 1 day ago ·

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Winplacsho · I personally don't use Beyers & I agree adjusting the Beyer are frustating, but the teletimer is more jacked up at Gulfstream than any other track. Just be glad that those figures are what the majority of the public are looking at & very influential in swaying the odds. · 1 day ago ·

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RobertPotter · There are times when the so-called official time is erronous. I make my own figures and do hand time many races as a check.Its not at all uncommon for completely bogus times to be recorded as official and never changed. · 1 day ago ·

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DeadHeat · Point is Robert, they don't know what the real time is. I hand timed it and came closer to the 1.36. They have no clue which one is right, and when that is the situation you go with what is official or time it yourself. They didn't, potential giving the public false information. · 1 day ago ·

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Floridaf · Baffled only begins to describe how Beyer leaves me feeling. I NEVER use these figures as a handicapping tool, because, like stevebiscuit, I feel it is impossible to assign a number to a horse's performance. That number says nothing about track conditions, traffic, or possible stumbles or bumps during the race. Great blog Dani! · 1 day ago ·

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NickGunritz · If you're following close enough you'd see that there is definitely some problems with the official timing system at Gulfstream. There is definitely no way that Algorithms went 136.17 and the number that Trackus gives of 135.09 is definitely closer to the true final time. Besides that I love the Beyer Speed Figures, but not because I put a ton of faith in them, instead you can exploit the fact that the public does and you can find false favorites because of that BIG BOLD NUMBER in the Form is so front and center. As with everything else, they must be used in context. · 1 day ago ·

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DeadHeat · Nick, as i said, I actually hand timed the race, the time I had was slightly closer to the 1.36, but was pretty much in the middle. I timed another race, and found my time on that to be slightly faster than the official time as well. Giving me cause to think that Algorithms did indeed run closer to 1.36 flat. · 1 day ago ·

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ghelguera · That is why I don't use Beyer speed figures they are so inconsistent. Equibase is more consistent and more reliable. Beyer is also too biased on the West Coast giving east coast horses higher figures. · 1 day ago ·

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NickGunritz · Deadheat, no offense, but your hand times can hardly be reliable. Either way we're it's somewhere between 135 and 136, it hardly matters, all you have to do is watch the race to know Algorithms was very impressive. · 1 day ago ·

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ghelguera · That is why I don't use Beyer speed figures they are so inconsistent. Equibase is more consistent and more reliable. Beyer is also too biased on the West Coast giving east coast horses higher figures. · 1 day ago ·

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icyhotboo · Speed figures are only a tool, a part of the information needed to handicap and they are very subjective. As for changing speed figures in light of new facts that is the right thing to do. · 1 day ago ·

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icyhotboo · I'm curious as to how people could possibly handicap without SF. Dead Heat, Beyer did all the newcomers a favor by putting out a reference point to begin handicapping and quickly eliminating certain horses much to the detriment of people like myself. Now that I don't bet very often it makes no difference but is used way back. There is nothing to explain everything. Einstein couldn't do it how do you expect Beyer to? Always looking for the easy answer and there is one. If you don't like them don't use them. I have to chuckle when I here the new young experts speak of energy distribution figures and their impact on handicapping. Watch the horse run a few races and you'll have your energy answers. I wonder what they did for thousands of years before electricity? Oh I remember we used to burn witches on the corner while we chatted especially the plump ones. ghelguera, by sheer volume alone the best horse have to be outside Kalifornia. · 1 day ago ·

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DeadHeat · Nick, then what whould you suggest? I hand time races all the time, it does not take a rocket scientist to do so, and for you to even act like it does is completely rediculous. Watching does not give you all the answers. That is why there are charts, that is why there are splits. Algorithms was slowing down through that race, not getting faster. Hansen set him up. Did Algorithms look good, he did, but after reading the chart there is no way I'm ready to call him the fastest 3yr old in the America, which is basically what Beyer is telling us. Icy, I don't expect Beyer to do everything I expect him to use what is known and not base something off of debate. He has no clue if the 1.35 is actually right or not, but we do know that the 1.36 is what is out there and what is being used. This is not a favor, honestly, especially not today. Not when you can't count on a person and his team to put out a number using reliable stats. · 23 hours ago ·

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NTamm1215 · Laura, with all due respect, are you familiar with how figures are computed? That a racetrack can speed up or slow down dramatically on a daily, if not hourly basis? That comparing final times from different days is a terrible idea? · 22 hours ago ·

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broxtone · Beyer has written in one of his books not directly about the shortcomings of the figures.He wrote about a futuristic system that could keep track of the distance each horse actually ran.This is not timed as precisely as a track and field event where the start is staggered allowing the outside runners to get a lead because they are outside.Their is also bumping and stopping in horseracing because there are no lanes.Beyer made a tidy sum when he was the only one that had the Beyer speed figures,now anyone that buys the form has them.There will not be the kind of betting overlays that the numbers revealed when he was the only one that had them. · 22 hours ago ·

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broxtone · Having said this there is also the question of making varients and human error · 22 hours ago ·

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broxtone · Any timing of races is going to be inaccurate so the speed figures will be also,I use the old school way of comparison lengths beaten · 22 hours ago ·

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icyhotboo · @DeadHeat, either purposely or inadvertently you answered your own question when you stated in your reply to me that"you don't expect Beyer to do everything." You as a handicapper should be doing "all" the work. As far as watching a horse run that is still only part of the puzzle we are trying to solve by using as much past information attainable to us to predict the future which can get really tricky. While it's possible I might have somewhere I don't generally refer to speed figures as Beyer's as they were around in one form or another long before A. Beyer made his mark. For as much criticism this guy gets (A. Beyer) even from me you really have to love him. Out of tens of thousands of races run annually he can't pick a winner to save his life but he can tell you what you did wrong after the race is run and get paid well doing it. Lighten up on the guy he's a self described "bum who got lucky." Instead of being so critical of Beyer in your search for a winner read the blogs because there are some good handicappers here you could learn more. To be more blunt chat with them pre-race and share thoughts or simply see who is putting some hot horses up at the moment or consistently. Getting back to SF there arbitrary numbers that differ from person to person or in this high tech society I should say tout to tout. Here's a novel idea. Take the time yourself to build off what is already there and use your own numbers as you must have some idea just by raising this question. GL · 21 hours ago ·

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annmatt · Would like for you to have listed the speed figures from other sources to see how they compared. I'm not a big fan of Beyer, anyway, except to use him to check against other sources. Thank goodness, he isn't the only one out there who calculates this stuff. There are other sources for speed figures. · 21 hours ago ·

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travel_vic · Using a Beyer is like reading the last chapter of a book and trying to understand the story. Beyer himself late said he agreed with the notion of How they run fast over how fast they run. · 21 hours ago ·

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driveon · Do you wager on the races, Deadheat? If the answer is no, why would you care in the slightest what Beyer number is assigned to a race. The ENTIRE purpose of a Beyer figure is to be used as a handicapping tool/aid for wagering purposes. As for all the posters saying the numbers are useless because they don't take into account "stumbles, ground loss, traffic, bumps etc. - BEYER himself in the book Beyer on Speed writes that trip notes made by the handicapper are VITAL to be used in conjunction with the nember and "how the figure was earned is equally important to consider and project onto today's race. The continuous Beyer bashing is a little nauseating-maybe those who claim he is clueless should post their own systems and R.O.Is. · 21 hours ago ·

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travel_vic · Final times of these races can be the same: wire to wire job an pacesetter slows down at the end, Pace battle collpases and 3rd horse paaes pacesetters, three on or near the lead colllapse and a closer comes up....NOWHERE near the same · 21 hours ago ·

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travel_vic · Ones ROI is based upon how they wager, a mutally exclusive experience to handicapping a race...Beyers are OVER Bet and have never addressed HOW they were arrived at · 21 hours ago ·

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driveon · You're missing the point - that's where the trip notes come into play. The BSF number only tells you how fast a horse ran, not how or why> Beyer himself would toss a horse like Bellamy Road out following a devastating wood Memorial win when he surely earned a high fig BECAUSE he was completely unchallenged throughout the race. In the ensuing Derby, it was VERY obvious that BR would not maike the lead and had no chance - therefore he is a toss DESPITE being the top BSF horse. "cappers who prefer to just bet on a "number" with no analysis whatsoever do indeed overbet these types of horses, leading to golden opportunities for those who apply the figures and project future figures correctly. I challenge anyone who has posted on this thread to produce ANY excerpt from a Beyer book that recommends BLINDLY betting on the top fig horse as if it were "betting on a number" as has been suggested. Go ahead. Produce the evidence. · 21 hours ago ·

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travel_vic · Trip notes are SUBJECTIVE alterations in the number. Unless an amimal is severly compromised they mean LITTLE as one looks for the PERFORMER and not the single PERFORMANCE · 21 hours ago ·

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travel_vic · Bellamy Road was suspect since a huge early bias was extant the day of that race and his energy was far too early to go 10 furlongs three weeks later · 21 hours ago ·

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driveon · ????? Isn't ALL handicapping subjective??? Haven't you SUBJECTIVELY decided that BSF's are useless? You mean to tell me if a horse raced 5-wide on both turns of a 8 1/2 F race and lost to a horse who hugged the rail throughout and I had that in my "trip notes" that info wouldn't have value? The ENTIRE point of handicapping a SINGLE race is to indeed come up with the likely end result of today's PERFORMANCE, not a generaliztion regarding who the best PERFORMER might be. A classic example in today's world would be The Factor. His PERFORMANCE seems to be directly correlated to how much rival early speed is signed on against him. I bet race ws to turn a profit. I am ALWAYS concerned with how horses will perform today and why. · 20 hours ago ·

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NickGunritz · @deadheat, I understand the point of timing races, and you can time every race if you want, but what makes your hand times more accurate than equibase or trakus? Better yet, why would I trust your times? Furthermore, unless it's a turf race I don't expect a horse to be running faster at the finish, especially when he's being hand ridden because he had the race won at the top of the stretch. A 98 beyer or a 105 beyer, I don't really care, it was only his 3rd start so it was very impressive, however he still needs to improve and do it around 2 turns. · 20 hours ago ·

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driveon · travel_vic: how did you know there was a "huge early bias"? Did you make SUBJECTIVE "trip notes" in that regard then apply it to your SUBJECTIVE analysis of the next race? You make my point for me with every post. Funny. · 20 hours ago ·

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icyhotboo · @driveon, speaking of horses going wide don't you just love those european trotters going 3 wide the entire mile and never letting the pressure off, I know I do. · 20 hours ago ·

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driveon · @icy - it's a completely different style of racing, but it sure is fun to watch. The Australians have a similar style of racing. · 19 hours ago ·

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icyhotboo · I watched Un De Mae do that to Nevele Pride in the International, 69-70 can't remember which yr think it was Roosevelte. have a good day · 18 hours ago ·

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DeadHeat · Driveon, Yes i have bet races, but rarely. I care because I love to handicap, even if not for money. I want my sources to be accurate and reliable, this is simply not. For those who ask, yes I am familiar with how Beyer makes his figures, I have said so numerous times, and it's not rocket science. Nick, the official time being posted is not the 1.35. That is used by Beyer and his team. Other major sites have the official clocking down as 1.36 flat. I also never said you had to trust my times, however, what I did was fairly close to most of the original clockings, which obviously means I'm not that far off. Seperate hand times will almost always show a little difference as was the case here. Icy, I don't have a question. As a handicapper I don't expect Beyers to be the be all end all, however if your going to call yourself a pro at something then make sure you are as accurate as possible and are putting out info that corresponds with what the other stats are, the official stats. Beyer did not do that. · 18 hours ago ·

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HorseDynasty · I have never understood the interest some people have with Beyers. · 18 hours ago ·

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icyhotboo · @DeadHeat, Beyer has a whole team at his disposal with no accountability except to themselves and possibly DRF. Speed figures are so subjective if your a serious person you almost have to make your own or pay a good service to save you time.If you don't want to do either you can average different outlets figures. Accurrate information is essential as you point out. You obviously have perseverence and patience that's more than half the battle won. Good luck in your endeavor's, maybe someday we'll be reading your figures, or buying them. One never knows. · 17 hours ago ·

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DeadHeat · Icy, I use all type of methods, however not everyone does when handicapping or betting. For some these figs are the be all end all, for me they aren't but for some yes they are. I have thought about making my own figs, but the lack of time that I want and need make it very hard to do so consistently. · 17 hours ago ·

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driveon · I don't get it - if you want your "sources to be accurate and reliable", why do you consult Beyers at all? You have made it clear in various preivious posts that you believe the figures are unreliable and subjective. So why use them as a "source". · 16 hours ago ·

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DeadHeat · Driveon, just because I don't always agree does not mean do not study. I'm a conservative Repluican, that doesn't mean I ignore all things liberal and democrat. You keep updated, you study, that way you can have an inteligent conversation on all issues. · 16 hours ago ·

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HorseDynasty · DeadHeat, very good point. It is a good idea to look at as many aspects as possible. Just because I don't put much stock into Beyers doesn't mean I haven't researched how they are derived and used, and arrived at my opinion/conclusion by doing so. · 16 hours ago ·

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travel_vic · Early bias is denoited when the standard of the early/late balance is far more positive than the average over a season. The day Bellamy Road ran it was almot 40% higher than normal, THA'TS How · 15 hours ago ·

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fastcarsandfasthorses · Four days ago I posted a similar question with no response. My original comment asked: "Can somebody explain how Mucho Macho Man runs 6 lengths faster than Awersome Feather on the same day at the same distance, yet their Beyer figures are only 4 points apart (100 vs. 96)? At the same time, Holladay Road runs 2.5 lengths faster than Willa B Awesome on the same day at the same distance, yet there is a 11 point difference (98 vs. 87)." · 8 hours ago ·

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driveon · "I challenge anyone who has posted on this thread to produce ANY excerpt from a Beyer book that recommends BLINDLY betting on the top fig horse as if it were "betting on a number" as has been suggested. Go ahead. Produce the evidence. " Crickets from the Beyer Bashers. Typical. · 6 hours ago ·

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Hello, HorseRacingNation Radio Network!

I am thrilled to announce that at long last, Horse Racing Nation will hit the airwaves with the creation of the HorseRacingNation Radio Network. The exciting new feature is yet another way our innovative website will reach horse racing fans everywhere. Race fans often get their news from local sport...Read More

Posted 12 hours ago ·

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AndyScoggin · Hey, that sounds exciting! Can't wait to hear the shows! · 12 hours ago ·

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rvresort · Mike and Andy are off and running with a very informative show showcasing our favorite track Oaklawn Jockey Club in Hot Springs, Arkansas as well as racing news from around the nation · 12 hours ago ·

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cpsoren121 · This is so awesome!!! · 10 hours ago ·

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Winplacsho · I'm fired up for this! I'll be tuning in for sure! · 8 hours ago ·

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driveon · Congratulations! · 6 hours ago ·

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Animal Kingdom

I still don't understand how he won 3 year old Eclipse award.

Posted by LarryDickson · 15 days ago ·

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cocoa2 · The Eclipse Awards are for the best of the year. Were just lucky they aren't as bad as claimers yet. · 9 hours ago ·

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GregRiessland · i say him or mr commons. fine with animal kingdom. · 7 hours ago ·

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Sarazen

1924 and 1925 Horse of the Year; owned by Virginia Vanderbilt. He was inducted into the Racing Hall of Fame in 1957

Posted by luvzenyatta · 7 hours ago ·

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Hawkster

Holds the WR for 12f at 2:22 4/5

Posted by cocoa2 · 9 hours ago ·

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Speightstown

If he can find a real nice English distance mare and their colt runs on dirt... maybe this time?

Posted by cocoa2 · 9 hours ago ·

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George Iacovacci Sr.

I know these people very well I have seen the horse he is very sound and passed all vet checks with fling colors known to man these are very nice people who love their horses and the assholes of the racing community take advantage of the one that should be in jail is the expense that falsified the copy of the bill of sale if you don't know someone you should not judge them that's the problem with this business people like you that have to be in everyone else's business and don't have a life maybe you should spend more time with your horses and take care of them and stay out of others life

Posted by RachelLyon

· 9 hours ago ·

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Payne Whitney Stables

A forgotten stable of greats, Upset, John P. Grier, Regret and Johren to name a few.

Posted by cocoa2 · 9 hours ago ·

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Where has all the stamina gone?

I have just finished reading the book Bred to Run, by Mike Helm. It is about Mike’s account of a one-week visit to Claiborne Farm in 1992. In a 1:1 interview with Seth Hancock, Helm indirectly asked, why is there no stamina in US bloodstock anymore? Seth had some very interesting theories, one of wh...Read More

Posted 17 hours ago ·

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Floridaf · Fantastic blog Mr. Scott. So many have asked the same question without really providing a solid answer. The U.S. has certainly gone speed crazy, a fact that is evidenced by the number of speed records being broken on a constant basis. Afleet Alex and Drosselmeyer are very good candidates to potentially help alleviate the lack of stamina. Since Afleet Alex did not race after winning the Belmont, he is a bit of an unknown in that department; but Drosselmeyer's best races have arguably been at 9 furlongs or longer. · 16 hours ago ·

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travel_vic · Been buggin the powers that be for years regarding this. OFFER more graded stakes at stamina distances to prove where potential stamina sires come from...Simple as that · 16 hours ago ·

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travel_vic · Keep shortening the available stakes races and one is surprised that stamina has disappearedÉ · 16 hours ago ·

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travel_vic · The race of the year, most years, was the Jockey Club Gold Cup at 2 miles. Those days are far gone. · 15 hours ago ·

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zxswordxz · Fantastic article...As a horse racing fan, it is sad that entire racing industry seems to point towards speed and not stamina. Like travel_vic mention, what happen to the 2 miles, JCGC? Why isn't organization like the NHRA pushing for more grades race that require horses with stamina? I'm a bit sad to see the direction of today's horse racing. That is why we might never see a MOW, Citation, Secretariat. · 15 hours ago ·

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cocoa2 · I hope that we can once again see a horse go 2 miles like Kelso or maybe extend distance to 4 miles! · 13 hours ago ·

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HorseDynasty · cocoa2, Are you refering to/meaning 4 mile heats? · 13 hours ago ·

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cocoa2 · I can only hope. It's a far dream, but you can't have a dream come true without a dream. · 13 hours ago ·

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AmbitiousD · Thanks for all the kind words everyone! I would highly recommend the book Bred to Run, its a very interesting read · 10 hours ago ·

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Sheeds Paisley

Anyone know the status of this filly? She broke down in her race today.

Posted by ohio adversary · 10 hours ago ·

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Emcee

Super impressive allowance win today, he nearly equalled the 7 furlong track record at gulfstream set by hilda's passion. His gallop out was absolutely beast.

Posted by digidot · 10 hours ago ·

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Who are the Top Females of All Time?

The top females thoroughbreds are some of our favorite and most memorable. Zenyatta, Ruffian, Rachel Alexandra. Genuine Risk, Go For Wand and Personal Ensign. Twilight Tear, Gallorette and Regret. All time greats, every one of them. But who belongs in the top 10? Who belongs at the top? Jump on now ...Read More

Posted 244 days ago ·

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BrittanyHamilton · Great more fighting about Zenyatta and Rachel Alexandra. Both deserve no less than a 8. Ruffian deserves no less than a 10. . · 244 days ago ·

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saveidlewild · I agree with Brittany. Ruffian is the all time greatest filly. She was in the lead when she broke down. No one ever bested her. · 244 days ago ·

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BrianZipse · I'm OK with Ruffian at #1, and Zenyatta at #2, but Rachel is down at #16??? Looks like I have some voting to do! ;-) · 244 days ago ·

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diamondomi1 · Zenyatta, hands down. · 244 days ago ·

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mshutty · Beverly D' Angelo wasn't on the list so I am going to go with Goldikova, Zenyatta, Ruffian and Rachel Alexandra · 244 days ago ·

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zatt · Beverly D' Angelo ;-) You must be pushing 50, Mr. Shutty! · 244 days ago ·

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icyhotboo · I can personally make a case for about 20 who can sit in the top spot.This is a tough one.So many great ones. · 244 days ago ·

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IronMaidens · Kincsem went 54 races for 54 starts in four years throughout Europe and her record still stands. · 244 days ago ·

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EllyEllison · Ruffian was and still is number 1!! · 244 days ago ·

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icyhotboo · It probably will stand for a while. I'm just taking a wild guess.Since horses back then were owned only by royaly I would assume they were all good competetive races. · 244 days ago ·

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ArnoldHeino · have to go with rachel..she ran 11 races in less then a year and won them all ..and some against males who tried to not let her run · 244 days ago ·

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Thoroughbred44 · Really, why did they do this now while all this "who is best" was just starting to cool off? I don't get it. Oh well. I'm all for opinions, but as we have seen, this gets way out of hand. · 244 days ago ·

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KyOaksRunner · I'd have to say Rachel Alexandra but it feels a little unfair to Ruffian because she had her career cut short and was undefeated with so many records broken/set in her races. Goldikova ranks right up there as well and Go For Wand. · 244 days ago ·

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4everzenyatta · I love Zenyatta, Ruffian, Go for Wand I could not even choose a top one. Could we do a three-way tie? xD · 243 days ago ·

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girt · Black Caviar is one who could possibly top them all. She is almost in the class of Ruffian and Zenyatta. As of now, she is in the top five. · 243 days ago ·

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rohan2reed · Zenyatta shouldn't even be in the top 5. RA at #16 is laughable. just goes to show how uninformed Zenyatta's rabid and unsophisticated fanbase is. · 243 days ago ·

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dubby30 · 1000% agree with you there Rohan2reed. Overrated is the word. · 243 days ago ·

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timgsmith10 · The biggest JOKE is GOLDIKOVA at 21? WTF · 243 days ago ·

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Woodbinemile · How is Zarkava so far down the list?. WAKE UP PEOPLE! Zenyatta in the 1 hole??. Wow. To me Dance Smartly will always be my sentimental choice for favorite filly, but could not include her in the top 5, but to put Zenyatta a head of the Great Zarkava, Makybe Diva, Goldikova, and even the Great Black Caviar who gets NO respect because she is a sprinter. Zarkava's wins in the Arc, and Prix Vermeille at 1m 1/2 , or Makybe Diva's 3 straight Melbourne cups at 2 Miles, and her win in the 10.2 furlong Cox Plate was FAR more impressive then either of Zenyatta's BC wins. No Contest · 243 days ago ·

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icyhotboo · I think were awake and able to make a choice,Zenyatta is mine.Quite frankly I would definately put her somewhere in the top 30 all time best horses.yeah she was that good.Joe Louis fought a lot of tomato cans so why can't she pick when she wants to run for the championship. · 243 days ago ·

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icyhotboo · Woodbinemil: Sea the Stars rated the best horse in the world in 2009 didn't show up for the $5 million BCC.You think he was afraid of Summer Bird? Gio Ponti? and that surface was just right for him which was proven by the performance of Ravens Pas and Henryy The Navigator.If your going to belittle others you should have just a more knowledge than those you are referring to. · 243 days ago ·

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TimSmith · Zenyatta is the most Overrated horse in the History of racing. Thats for sure. · 242 days ago ·

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icyhotboo · If she is so overated why didn't Sea the Stars a horse who was claimed to be better than Secretariat pass up the $3 million BCC? Maybe they thought instead of Gio Ponti losing it would be them! · 242 days ago ·

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icyhotboo · the $3 million was the winners share which represented 75% of his life earnings for 2 years.Early retirement my @ss he took a pass on facing Z.She has that same style ,kick,and closing speed of Buckpasser and he wasn't bad as horses go. · 242 days ago ·

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skipaway2000 · Poor Busher & Twilight Tear - great fillies who have no votes so far. Busher was probably War Admiral's greatest daughter, winning 15 of 21 starts vs females & males. Twilight Tear was one of Calumet's greats, 18 for 24 in her career, HOTY in 1944, Hall of Famer. · 242 days ago ·

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Thoroughbred44 · Exactly! It's basically a competition between Goldi, Rachel, Zenyatta, and Ruffian. No other horse is even considered basically. · 242 days ago ·

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timgsmith10 · So you are saying Sea the Stars ducked Zenyatta. What kind of Glue are you sniffing. Zenyatta had maybe 2-4 tough races her whole career. She was pretty good but honestly way way Overrated · 242 days ago ·

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icyhotboo · timgsmith10:I'm not sniffing anything but BS here...Where was he when this one win equaled 75% of his lifetime earnings...don't just rattle something off actually think about it. · 242 days ago ·

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icyhotboo · timgsmith10 you're entitled to your opinion just as I am mine.Actually I am a huge fan of RA, I live on the east coast so where is my bias.She (Z) covers as much ground in that last 1/4 mile as good as any horse I've seen without exception,and yes I've seen Secretariat on for occassions two of which were clean losses one against tomato can the other against a horse who on that day would have beaten anyone. · 242 days ago ·

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TimSmith · Why wouldnt Zenyatta go to Dubai for 10 Million then? Was she ducking? There is no debate about her campaigns they were conservative and selected. She never was pushed and really in 2 Tough races she is 1/2. · 241 days ago ·

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icyhotboo · tim you made the statement "Zenyatta is the most overrated horse ever" I can say that Blame one of the great closers of all time who closed on the outside at Saratoga against the track bias to beat Quality Road among others is the most underrated · 241 days ago ·

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icyhotboo · here are my top 4 females in no particular order Busher,Ruffian,Zenyatta,Rachel.Just another opinion among many...have a nice day · 241 days ago ·

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TimSmith · To overestimate the merits of; rate too highly ..Over rated by definition. Which in my opinion defines Zenyattaa · 241 days ago ·

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icyhotboo · your certainly entitled to that as is everyone else,makes racing nice to talk about. · 241 days ago ·

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dubby30 · Here is the problem, when you compare her to the top horses that ran in america in the last 10 years. the Curlin's, Ghostzappers, Rachel Alexandra's Roses in May and Invasor's, their records and resumes are full of Grade 1 after Grade 1 races that mean something on the national stage. Zenyatta's is full of mediocre regional races that very few people respect. You give me Curlin's SFoster, Woodward, 2 JCGC, DWC and BCC compared to Zenyatta's 3 Vanitys, 3 lady's Secrets and 1BCC and BCLC anyday. you give me Invasor's Suburban, Pim Special, BCC, DWC, Donn and Whitney or Rachel's Oaks, Mother Goose, Haskell, Woodward and Preakness over the same weak races that Zenyatta was asked to run in against optional claimers over and over again. Yes all props and respect for running in 3 BC's but when everything about your schedule is set up to be easy all year long till the BC you should run well, map out this schedule for her in 2010, Apple Blossom, Santa Anita Handicap, Vanity, Pacific Classic, prep on dirt in the Personal Ensign or Whitney and then go to the Beldame or JCGC and then see what its like to get her to the BC. The Point being, she's over rated because she was incapable of a schedule of this nature. Common sense says a horse is not sharp working 6f in 1:15, that means you're doing just enough to beat well optional claimers, come into a Grade 1 race off a 6f 1:15 work and she finishes dead last. Thats what alot of people dont get, this was not magnificent managing of the horse it was taking the easy way out because she could not keep Grade 1 form over a lenghty period of time. · 241 days ago ·

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noe courts · I think Gallorette, Regret, Twilight Tear, and Top Flight were some of the best ever. But Ruffian is number 1 · 241 days ago ·

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noe courts · I did not see Imp in the top 20 whats up with that ? · 241 days ago ·

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ShayStenchever · How can someone say Zenyatta is overrated, and Ruffian and Blame are super stars? Yes, they all are, but you cant say that about the two and not about Zenyatta. The reason is simple. Ruffian is overrated because she broke her leg in a race. Our culture LIVES to glrify anything that dies in the name of the sport. Take Barbaro for example. He was an ok horse who got lucky in the Derby, then broke his leg. So now we treat him like some sort of perfect, god horse. Ruffian had a lot of stamina, but she never raced any GOOD horses that would hav epushed her. Even the "great match race" was with a single male. One male who had lost several races and only picked up one leg of the triple crown. She couldnt match his speed and broke her leg. The same could be said for Barbaro. So just because they had a couple fine runs against terrible horses and then broke their legs, doesnt mean theyre the golden horse of horse racing. You have to look at real acheevments. Blame was raced what, three times? So we dont even know how good he could have been. Not to mention if you watch the video of the BCC, Zenyatta passed him just after the finish line. Her late finish was in no way her fault. In my opinion, she won that race. The horses she ran against were good horses and in my opinion, she belongs at the top and Ruffian and Blame belong somewhere in the middle, under such horses as Lady's Secret, Secretariat, Native Dancer, Sunday Silence, Shuvee, Twilight Tear, and Open Mind. And thats all I have to say on the issue. · 237 days ago ·

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icyhotboo · ShayStenchever_ I disagree,Ruffian was one of the great ones,and Foolish Pleasure the horse you so casually refer to as ordinary is ranked in the top 100 alltime horses by bloodhorse magazine.Lastly Secretariat was in a class by himself,no other horse has ever done what he did. · 237 days ago ·

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~RuffianQueenOfRacing~ · Ruffian raced massive competetion! she always set new stakes records, and beat all of big reds 2 yr old records! Ruffian was majorly famous before the match race! why do you think out of a 20million tv audience and a 51000 grandstand audience that Ruffian was the favourite to win! Ruffian couldnt match his speed? Ruffian was running him by over half a length! couldnt match his speed when she was beating him! and one of the biggest differences between the 2 was 2-3 seconds! Ruffian set new track and stakes records at 4 different tracks, and you call her overrated? Many say she was even better then Secretariat! even his trainer said she may even be better then him after she won the acorn! · 236 days ago ·

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~RuffianQueenOfRacing~ · Rating Rachel Alexandra AND Ruffian a 1 just shows how little you know about horse racing! · 236 days ago ·

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Thoroughbred44 · I'm sorta confused... I'm not saying that I don't think Ruffian was a great filly because she was, but what I don't get is why some Ruffian fans trash Zenyatta when Zenyatta has more consecutive wins (I know Ruffian breaking her sesamoids was out of her control) but Zenyatta is a so-called "claimer". I know Ruffian made track records, but if Zenyatta were to have broken her leg, would you call her the greatest of all time and respect her? · 236 days ago ·

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~RuffianQueenOfRacing~ · Ruffian was called the greatest filly of all time after she won the Acorn, and the greatest female of all time after she won the filly triple crown setting new stakes records for everyone of them. She was called the greatest long before she broke down, many called her the best they had ever seen, after they watched her maiden, because no horse has ever won their maiden by 15 lengths and in record shattering time, infact no horse has ever won a 5 1/2 furlong race by even 10 lengths · 236 days ago ·

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BrianBradley · Ruffian won 10 straight races. She won from 5 1/2 furlongs to a 1 mile and a half. She tied, or broke 9 track or stakes records. SHE NEVER TRAILED A RACE AFTER A 1/8 MILE OUT OF THE GATE. THAT IS GREATNESS. You can talk about how Zenyatta came from far back, but, Ruffian never looked back after a 1/8 mile. She was poetry in motion. SHE WAS AWESOME!!!! You'll never know how sad it was, when she broke down in that match race. She was elegance in motion. · 236 days ago ·

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4everZenyatta · RUffian was an amazing filly, my grandmother was actually at the Great Match race with my grandfather. I can only imagine what it was like for her. · 232 days ago ·

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GooberNation · Ruffian for sure.. Z was good.. but no track records.. I dont think.. lol · 221 days ago ·

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New York Vinnie · Can we please get over this myth about Ruffian and her track records. For the "record" Ruffian never broke any track records. She equalled the same five and a half furlong mark at Belmont Park twice. That's it. Ruffian ran just three races over a mile and lost one of those races. Ruffian beat the winners of 3 Grade 1 races and raced 10 of her 11 races in New York and vanned down the turnpike to Monmouth Park for the only other time she left the state. Ruffian carried anywhere from 118 lbs. to 122 lbs. , raced on New York surfaces that established seven track records in two short years, and never faced any quality competition. That said, and BEING A NEW YORKER, Ruffian was a very fast horse, but Ruffian is certainly not the greatest female racehorse of all time. Oh, please. · 219 days ago ·

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Thead'or · ^Excuse the filly for killing herself in that race. Zenyatta never ran at 1 1/2, she certainly didn't get the fastest time of any dirt female to race at that distance. Zenyatta left her the comfort of the Californian tracks maybe 4 times. That's it. · 219 days ago ·

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New York Vinnie · Not talking about Zenyatta. Just the facts about Ruffian. · 219 days ago ·

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New York Vinnie · Tale of the Tape: · 219 days ago ·

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New York Vinnie · Tale of the Tape: · 219 days ago ·

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New York Vinnie · World Records: · 219 days ago ·

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New York Vinnie · World Records: · 219 days ago ·

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New York Vinnie · World Records: Zenyatta 1, Ruffian 0...North American Records: Zenyatta 3, Ruffian 0...Track Records: Zenyatta 1, Ruffian 0...Winners of Eclipse Awards beaten or finished ahead of: Zenyatta 7, Ruffian 0...Winners of Grade 1 races beaten: Zenyatta 69, Ruffian 3...Graded Stakes Male racehorses beaten or finished ahead of: Zenyatta 19, Ruffian 0...Grade 1 Races won: Zenyatta 13, Ruffian 5...Grade 1 Races won in a row: Zenyatta 8, Ruffian 3. Most weight carried: Zenyatta 129 lbs. (twice), Ruffian 122 lbs....Most races won in a row: Zenyatta 19, Ruffian 10. Need I say more? · 219 days ago ·

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~RuffianQueenOfRacing~ · zenyatta holds no world records! · 219 days ago ·

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New York Vinnie · Most Grade 1/Group 1 wins in a row (8). Rock of Gilbraltar had previously held the record. · 219 days ago ·

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ruffian75 · New York Vinnie, you go so far as to criticize Ruffian, and the track bias that resulted in 7 track records, and then you laud Zenyetta for setting a track record. Santa Anita had one world record for 6 furlongs that was posted by a claimer. And why would Santa Anita be host of 2 consecutive BC's, having a freshly laid "rug" called ProRide inserted, only to pull it up after the BC's, and return to dirt? And, why is it that California decided to go to synthetic, and have four different surfaces laid at the four tracks that use synthetic? I stand by Bay Meadows, who closed their track in defiance of the state commission that tried to force them to go to synthetic. · 219 days ago ·

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New York Vinnie · ruffian75, thanks for reminding me about the different types of surfaces won on: Zenyatta 5 (4 syn./1 dirt) Ruffian 1. · 218 days ago ·

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ruffian75 · Np problem, NY Vinnie. How many wins did Zenyatta have at age 3 1/2, vs. Ruffian? It's nice to compare a mare to a 3 1/2 yr old filly. And,back in 1974 and 1975, there weren't as many Graded races as there are now. So, I think the comparison of running against Graded competition kinda loses its luster. But, thanks for all the trivial data. You know, if the synthetic surfaces ever are discarded(like Santa Anita), then they'll have to do the Roger Maris asterisk. · 218 days ago ·

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New York Vinnie · ruffian75-you may have to wait for a while for the synthetics to go away. I count 26 racecourses around the world still having it with only two changing. They would include Keeneland, Turfway, Arlington, Hollywood Park, Del Mar among others. · 218 days ago ·

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New York Vinnie · Again, for the sake of keeping to the facts, Ruffian faced just one multiple · 218 days ago ·

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New York Vinnie · Excuse me...faced just one multiple Grade 1 winning horse and lost. Just go down the list of her races at the bottom of this page. On April 25 she raced in allowance race carrying 109 lbs. after she had won two Grade 1 races. What's with that? And wins the race in 1:09 and change. Just look at whom she's beaten. I count only Hot N Nasty and Laughing Bridge worth mentioning. · 218 days ago ·

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mrsmaryzinke · NYV, Do you count the match race as a loss by Ruffian? I could begin to understand that view if she had finished the race uninjured. · 218 days ago ·

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New York Vinnie · You can throw out the match race or you can count it. If you count it Ruffian lost her only race against a multiple Grade 1 winning horse. I prefer to not count the match race considering the tragic events surrounding it. Ruffian - fast horse, but never tested (competition or weights). · 218 days ago ·

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mrsmaryzinke · NYV, I'm not innocent of never contradicting myself, but you are saying at one thread that Ruffian "lost" the match race in which she was injured and did not finish, at at another thread you say you prefer not to count it. Either choose one point of view or post each at both threads, if you would. · 218 days ago ·

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ruffian75 · NYV - Sticking to the facts: Zenyetta - 2-for-3 on dirt(66.7% Win Pct); Ruffian - 10-for-10(or 11, if you want to count the match race; 100%, or 90.9% Win Pct.). Priceless. As for the synthetics going away any time soon, you're probably right, since Keeneland owns the right to the Polytrack surface. They'll be the last to bail. There are only two Tapeta tracks(Golden Gate and Presque Isle Downs) and one Cushion track(Hollywood). All the rest are Polytrack(Arlington, Del Mar, Keeneland, Turfway, and Woodbine). They compose less than 10% of all the tracks in the country, and yet Zenyetta ran 85% of her races on synthetic. · 218 days ago ·

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dubby30 · Those right there are some facts from Ruffian75, high five. What was Ruffian's record on Synthetics. Oh werent around then, only in the last few years when computers have been crushing and squeezing rubber bands and tires and kitty litter together to call it a horse racing surface. · 218 days ago ·

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icyhotboo · ruffian75-Zenyatta's loss was one of the best performances I have ever seen by any horse and has nothing to do with Ruffian who along eight bells,Danzig and many others who broke down was inbred to Native Dancer 4 times and the breakdown of eight bells was predicted before the race by a geneticist who also advises on breeding.If you wan't a semi independant opinion I would suggest putting the question of Native Dancer inbreds to Iron Maidens who is a member here and an expert on breeding.Now that I've made the suggestion I'm going to do that as her opinion carries more weight on the subject than laymen like us.I watched that match race on television and when Ruffian went down I almost vomitted.It was one of the most sickening things I have ever seen and I can still picture it clearly in my mind along with the sadness of remembering.Ruffian had more speed than any horse I have ever seen live or TV.This was also the second time she had trouble with a fracture.As a 2yo she got a fracture in the stretch and still won going away.Getting back to the second one that was so gruesome to watch because she kept trying to run even with a compound break.All heart · 218 days ago ·

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New York Vinnie · Mary - go ahead and let's throw out the match race. That leaves Ruffian having never raced a multiple Grade 1 winning racehorse. Now compare that with Zenyatta, whom faced and defeated somewhere in the neighborhood of 18 muliple Grade 1 winning racehorses, of both sexes. That's what you call being tested. · 218 days ago ·

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New York Vinnie · ruffian75-sorry but it isn't about racing surfaces. · 218 days ago ·

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mrsmaryzinke · NYV, You can choose whichever female you want as your top all-time. Mine is Ruffian. i'd just like to ask you, since Ruffian raced 3 months at age two and three months at age 3, what would you have liked her to have done to please you? And, I just checked, I have two eyes in my head and I know what I saw. · 218 days ago ·

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New York Vinnie · Mary - Ruffian gave us what she gave in her short-lived life. Much like Landaluce. Like I said before she was a fast horse, ran the races she ran. It's all history now and not about me. But I will interpret facts as facts. Nothing more, nothing less. · 218 days ago ·

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ruffian75 · Thanks for your kudos, dubby30. icyhotboo, it was an awesome kick to just fall short. Did you get any inspiration from Mine That Bird coming from last-to-first? That was pretty awesome watching the overhead view of Borel weaving him thru traffic. But, Mine That Bird was kinda like Arcangues. The day he was in midstretch on the way to the Derby finish line, I was looking back at my Racing Form, wondering what I could have possibly missed. My most inspirational race was Go For Wand running with so much heart, to the point that it would be her demise. She had the lead the entire race, and when Bayakoa came up to her, she dug back in, and didn't want to give up the lead. And, Mary, I agree with you. She will be forever remembered by me. · 218 days ago ·

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icyhotboo · It was an awsome permormance. As far as viewing it strictly as a fan as far back as she was and almost running down a great closer like Blame who ran down Quality Road at 1 1/8 mile at Saratoga.I don't think Blame gets enough credit for being as good as he was or Zenyatta closing on a great closer in his own right.What made the race special was the freezing conditions it was run under causing all the horses in the race to go much slower than they normally would.As far as inspirational there were a lot of them.Defeat happens to everyone but it doesn't have to diminish an acomplishment,look at Alydar those were three great races he lost.Curlin in his prime battling Rags to Riches the length of the stretch at Belmont etc. · 218 days ago ·

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timgsmith10 · Landulace sure didnt run a mile and a half in 227.. NYV You cant really knock Ruffian she was fast as hell and a winning record breaking horse from sprints to mile and half? · 218 days ago ·

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TheSecondBigRed · Twilight Tear sure was incredible. · 218 days ago ·

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New York Vinnie · timgsmith - for the umteenth time, yes - Ruffian was a fast horse, but absolutely not the greatest female racehorse. Ruffian was never tested. Ruffian's weight she carried include the following: 116, 117, 118, 119, 120, 113, 122, 121,121,121 & 121. Some of Ruffian's winning times include a 1:09 for six furlongs and a 1:09.4 for another six furlongs. You make mention of Ruffian's time of 1:21.2 in the · 218 days ago ·

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New York Vinnie · Excuse me..Grade 3 Comely carrying 113 lbs. Switch, on the other hand, won the Grade 1 La Brea Stakes in 1:20.3 for seven furlongs and again won the Grade 1 Santa Monica for the same distance in 1:20.4. · 218 days ago ·

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mrsmaryzinke · Just saying, I don't try to define Ruffian or Zenyatta by their equibase stats. Switch is nice at 7f., and I was surprised that she was second in the Vanity, but you could not be comparing her to Ruffian or saying that she is the better filly. · 218 days ago ·

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icyhotboo · New York Vinnie I think we both know SA is 2 seconds faster the great majority of tracks.Reminds me of Hollywood before the synthetics. · 217 days ago ·

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dubby30 · I guess the problem that causes things to be put into perspective for her most adament fans is that Zenyatta got the perfect pace scenerio to run into, wicked fast fractions, and she had a target that she was 2 lengths behind turning for home and she couldnt get the job done on the biggest of stages. Goldikova on the other hand handled her business that day in professional fashion, just out for a stroll, and Blame as great a races as he ran would never be considered in the top 30 of horses that ran in the past decade. That says it all, everything set up for her as it did in 2009, she swung wide, started her move and didnt have enough to hold him off. How would she have matched up in other renditions of the Classic, unfortunately we'll never know, how would she have matched up in the other top races for the top horses in the world. we wont know because her connections felt it more important to continue to rack up G1 wins over optional claimers than to step up and face the very best available in the U S a couple of times per year. So we're left with these what ifs, what if Zen was asked to run off 2 weeks rest, what if she had run in 1 race of significance from jan-oct, what if she had prepped on dirt. It doesnt matter, what does matter is she ran in 3 races of significance and was 2/3 66% win percentage, what matters is she has 0 wins in g1 company on dirt and 0 wins outside of two states Cali and AR. That is a problem for me when trying to elevate her above a horse that was proven over and over again. · 217 days ago ·

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icyhotboo · dubby,are you saying in essence it makes no difference even if she won by 8 inches the she is still a mediocre horse because you don't consider Blame a worthy opponent.Conclusion,win or lose you would have found a way to discredit her.Dubby30 while I understand your arguement as to her racing schedule I don't understand that you don't understand we was a very bad shipper and an extremely nervous horse so they did what was in her interest unlike the owners of RA who let that monster ride her repeatly.here's a thought that just popped in,just suppose RA figured the only way to get this guy off my back is to keep losing and did. · 217 days ago ·

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New York Vinnie · dubby30 - I started to read the first couple of paragraphs and realized that someone could easily insert the name of Man O' War with his race with Upset, or Native Dancer with his race with Dark Star, or Secretariat with his race with Onion. dubby30, are you angry that Zenyatta was not the perfect racehorse or are you still jealousy that Zenyatta surpassed Rachel Alexandra in everything? · 217 days ago ·

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girt · Kincsem and Ruffian, end of story! · 217 days ago ·

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girt · Kincsem and Ruffian, end of story! · 217 days ago ·

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New York Vinnie · icyhotboo - "while I understand your argument as to her (Zenyatta) racing schedule" - Don't you mean Ruffian facing only three Grade 1 winners, winning an allowance race carrying 109 lbs. after winning two Grade 1 races, racing in a Grade 3 after the allowance race, never carrying more than 121 lbs., and refusing to travel out of the area for a race. Dudes, please. You can't have it both ways. If you have a problem with Zenyatta's propensity to destroy multiple Grade 1 winning, Eclipse Award Champions on a regular basis, then by all means please recognize the pathetic overmatched bunch that Ruffian bullied repeatedly in New York. Please don't be hypocritical, the facts bear this out. · 217 days ago ·

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~RuffianQueenOfRacing~ · she was put in the allowence after coming back from a fractured back leg, excuse whiteley for not wanting to push her! · 217 days ago ·

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New York Vinnie · RQoR - perhaps trainer Whiteley, Jr. shouldn't have brought Ruffian back to run at all. or at least the match race as I have earlier mentioned several times. That said, it still doesn't change the fact that Ruffian was never tested. Just look at the horses she ran against as well as the weight carried. Like my earlier reponse to icyhotboo and others is if you hold judgment to one horse you must use the same standard to the other. No double standards. · 217 days ago ·

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~RuffianQueenOfRacing~ · It was not a match race when Ruffian entered you idiot! It had Foolish Pleasure, Master Derby, Avatar and Ruffian in the race, but Avatar dropped out, and Master Derby was payed out, and by then there was too much pressure for Ruffian not to race, whiteley tried to get her out of it but the public and racing association wouldnt allow it! She was in the lead and drawing away, or could you not see that? are you blind? She did not crakc under the pressure, if pressure was a problem for her, then why did she not crack when hot n nasty stuck with her the entire race? Ruffian had a pooped splint in that race and still she did not crack under the pressure and she won, and she kept running after her sesamoids exploded despite jacinto trying hard to pull her up!! That is a champion, Ruffian tested herself in her races, weight carrying doesnt matter, look at black caviar, the #1 horse, who carries hardly any, and still no one holds that against her, most sprinters have trouble touching Ruffians records, frankel barely does, and black caviar has, and she carries less weight then Ruffian did, her fashion, astoria soritity, spinaway, comely, acorn and oaks records are still un touched, and the allowence was the caltha purse... If you say she ran against weak competiton then name any other fillies that raced in that time that she coujld have faced other then the ones she already did!! NONE because none were as good as her! She won champ 2 and 3 year old, she won the filly triple crown which is just as hard as the colts, and look how many have won the colts and fillies crown since the 70s! Ruffian may have raced against not so tough horses but she set new stakes records in all of her stakes races and was under a hand ride in all but one of them, which she was only whipped 3 times! people say she is overreated because she didnt leave her back yard when niether did zenyatta! · 217 days ago ·

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~RuffianQueenOfRacing~ · and to rate Ruffian a 1 just shows how pathetic you are and how little you know about horse racing, which comes to the point where all of your points are just a fans way to make zenyatta look better, so run along now · 217 days ago ·

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~RuffianQueenOfRacing~ · and zenyatta only raced 3 distances over 1 mile too! and lost at one of 2 races at one distance! · 217 days ago ·

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~RuffianQueenOfRacing~ · zenyatta only raced at 4 different distances where as ruffian raced at 6 different distances! · 217 days ago ·

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New York Vinnie · RQo · 216 days ago ·

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New York Vinnie · RQoR - you really shouldn't being here if you can't engage in an mature, informative discussion. But for your sake and others I'll help you out. Maybe you can learn something. First, take a long look at John Shirreffs, Zenyatta's trainer. He learned to say no. He also paid the price for this just by reading some of these blogs. Just say "no". Second, Zenyatta raced 19 times past a mile, which is 16 times more than Ruffian. Sorry, but most of the races offered for classic distance horses are from 1 and a sixteenth to a mile and an eighth to a mile and a quarter. Did you want Zenyatta to pull up at the quarter pole in a mile and an quarter race just so she could claim she ran a mile and a three-sixteenths race? Please, try something other. Perhaps I can leave you with a couple of quotes from other New York based trainers. First one is from Allen Jerkens, the legendary Hall of Fame trainer. He told John Shirreffs that he'd manny of the 'greats' run like Secretariat and Citation and Zenyatta was just as good as them. No mention of Ruffian. Another is from John Nerud, the Hall of Fame trainer of Dr. Fager and Ta Wee. He said this about Zenyatta..."She's the greatest female racehorse I've ever seen." These are from men that had both witnessed Ruffian and Zenyatta. · 216 days ago ·

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mrsmaryzinke · RuffianQueenOfRacing AND New York Vinnie, 1. RQOR, You are completely correct in your facts. NYV, anyone who would give 1 star on the already silly, just for fun ratings system, instead of just NOT rating Ruffian has ZERO credibility. You never saw her run, or you have no memory retention, or you are in serious need of an eye doctor and have been for years. RQOR's views on Ruffian: 10; NYV's credibility about THIS subject: 0. NYV, don't even. Don't make the attempt. But you will. A one? For what? You don't even know who she was. · 216 days ago ·

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New York Vinnie · mrsmary - Sorry, but I did see Ruffian run. I actually made money on the match race knowing how stupid it was...going against a battle tested and Grade 1 winning male racehorse. It was perhaps the only time I really didn't even want to cash the ticket knowing the results now. Yes, as I told you before, I really don't know where to put Ruffian since she really was tested so I gave her a 1. On the other hand anyone, as I have said repeatedly here, that believe that Ruffian is the greatest female racehorse of all time is either blind to the facts or emotionally driven by Ruffian tragic death. Or both. Or it could be the anger and jealousy exhibited by others that will not see that Zenyatta is the greatast female racehorse of all time. Facts bear this out. · 216 days ago ·

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New York Vinnie · Mrsmary - I actually had Ruffian to win the day she won the Sorority. I knew that California speed ball called Hot N Nasty was a good horse but it was mistake to fly her all the way in from LA and take on Ruffian in the humid sweltering heat of New Jersey. That California wasn't used to heat like that but I was impressed by the race Hot N Nasty put on. If I remember correctly this California horse came up to about a half length behind Ruffian going around the far turn but then the heat and humidity took over and lost by only 2 lengths or so. I was impressed by this Californian horse. · 216 days ago ·

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mrsmaryzinke · No, NYV, I'm not swayed by her tragic death in making my decision about not putting another female race horse above Ruffian. Yes, I do understand the facts. No, I won't back down. Try to convince someone else to agree with your views if it's that important to you. I have current stakes races to watch. See ya. You do know that Ruffian had a hairline fracture in that race you just mentioned? Just sayin'. Oh yah, your "You're a girl, so I know you must have cried". crap doesn't fly with me. But nice try.a · 216 days ago ·

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mrsmaryzinke · Oh, now you will gloat, Vin, I see you claim to have left NY to go to the Sorority, not the Spinaway. Whatever, You still haven't and never will convince me to change my mind, because I'm right about Ruffian. I'm surprised you'd leave NY, especially not lovely Buffalo. · 216 days ago ·

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~RuffianQueenOfRacing~ · zenyatta may have WON 19 times over a mile but she only raced at 4 distances, unless you exclude the 6 1/2 furlong race, meaning she too, only raced at 3 distances over 1 mile, meaning she only raced at 4 different distances where as Ruffian raced at 6 different distances, and a mile and 2 over, NYV YOU are the one stupid enough to rant on about how Ruffian only raced at 3 distances over a mile and zenyatta only raced at 3 distances over a mile too! like i said, Ruffian raced at 6 different distances, zenyatta only 4! now as you would say, HOWS THAT FOR COMPARISON!? · 216 days ago ·

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medlocke · My top 5 American fillies or mares are: #1-Zenyatta #2-Ruffian #3-Personal Ensign #4-Genuine Risk and #5-Go For Wand. That's how I personally rank my top 5, but I have no doubt I'd have plenty of people that would disagree? That's why I say it's merely the way I rank them. Only my own opinion!! · 216 days ago ·

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New York Vinnie · mrsmary - there are plenty of New Yorkers, such as myself, that appreciates racing from other parts of the country. Remember Bobby Frankel? · 216 days ago ·

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New York Vinnie · RQoR - I still don't get your point about the 4 distants. Did you want Zenyatta to forgo one of her Grade 1 races at a mile and an eighth and instead run in some Grade 3 mile race. Opps, that's what Ruffian did. · 216 days ago ·

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~RuffianQueenOfRacing~ · OH so you MUST be blind! Ruffians mile races were all G1 and were the filly triple crown, which is just as hard as the colts, and Ruffian won the crown easily! Like is said you were the one stupid enough to go on about distances when you were to stupid to realise that zenyatta raced at fewer distances and that same over a mile as Ruffian, not my fault you were too stupid to check the FACTS which you rant on about before you decided you were gona make an idiot out of yourself! · 216 days ago ·

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New York Vinnie · RQoR - I'll be kind but honest. You are a piece of work. Ruffian ran three races over a mile and lost one those races. Ruffian also ran in two Grade 1 races that were six furlongs because she was a two year old filly. If you want to make out that a horse that wins two Grade 1 races at six furlongs as two year old and just wins two more races past a mile as a three year old in what really amounts to public paid workouts against horses that were nothing in the first place then you're just kidding yourself. Sorry, but the facts bear that out. · 215 days ago ·

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TheSecondBigRed · This shouldn't be titled "Who ae the Top Females of All Time?". Instead they should've named it "How Much Everyone Can Fight". · 215 days ago ·

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timgsmith10 · New york Vinnie.....You Rate Ruffian a 1? You are a joke. · 215 days ago ·

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mrsmaryzinke · NYVinnie, You say you prefer not to count the match race, but then you do. Who do you think you will convince to think as you do? It's getting very close to the anniversary of her death, so let's see if the disrespect, because that's what it is, continues, even on that day. I would bet on it. Sad. · 215 days ago ·

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New York Vinnie · mrsmary - that's because RQoR is trying use the number of races Ruffian ran beyond a mile. Like I said I perfer to throw it out. · 215 days ago ·

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New York Vinnie · timgsmith - you got it backwards. It's the people that rate Ruffian the greatest female racehorse of alltime despite defeated a grand total of 3 winners of Grade 1 races, carrying weight that included 116 lbs., 117 lbs., 118 lbs., 119 lbs., 113 lbs., 122 lbs., and 121 lbs. that last four races, and racing only 3 races - opps, excuse me 2 races beyond a mile is a joke. I listed Zenyatta easily as the greatest female racehorse of all time. Then you would have to look at Azeri, Personal Ensign, Lady's Secret, Goldikova well before Ruffian based on what they've accomplished and defeated. Sorry, but the facts bear that out. · 215 days ago ·

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mrsmaryzinke · NYVin, How many more races over a mile should Ruffian have run won during the 3 months she raced as a 3yo? How many more precious little stars are you willing to dole out, oh generous one? Please hit "like" at the RQOR fan club site, thanks. · 215 days ago ·

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timgsmith10 · You could say the same crap about Zenyatta and her weak campaigns as well. · 215 days ago ·

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mrsmaryzinke · Ouch! Maybe I should just stick to one fan club so as not to upset my favorite? · 215 days ago ·

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KatieClarke · a website for who? and is it real? · 215 days ago ·

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mrsmaryzinke · KatieClarke, No, there is not really a fan club for all my strays from another horse racing website. Actually, I think the pound took one of them. Anyway, it was just my dark humor. disregard. · 215 days ago ·

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mrsmaryzinke · Gee Katie, You just joined up to ask me that question? How nice. Good luck at the races. · 215 days ago ·

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KatieClarke · no, I am using my facebook account · 215 days ago ·

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New York Vinnie · mrsmary - again, you can't re-write history. What is done is done. Just don't take what she (Ruffian) has done and expand it beyond measures. Ruffian was a fast - yes. But certainly not the greatest female racehorse of all time. · 215 days ago ·

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New York Vinnie · timgsmith - it's not crap. Just the facts. Yes, Zenyatta had races against weak competition. The facts are there. Just like Citation and Spectacular Bid running against themselves. Or Cigar running against "non-winners of 2 allowance races". But Zenyatta also had the records of beating or finishing ahead of the winners of 69 Grade 1 races and 7 Eclipse Award Champions. · 215 days ago ·

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mrsmaryzinke · ViN, I'm not expanding anything, about Ruffian that is. She is my pick for top female. Never going to change. You'll have to out-live me or when my other haunt gets interesting again, you'll be rid of me. · 215 days ago ·

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4everZenyatta · Ha, VInnie don't even bother paying attention to timgsmith's agruments. Their focus in life is obviously to tear Zenyatta down, no matter what, but ignore them, they don't deserve your energy ;) · 214 days ago ·

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TimSmith · How can you rate Ruffian a 1 and still be talking? You have no credibility with that. Its obvious you are emotional. I dont like picking on Zenyatta because she was a great horse. I just think her managers really werent aggresive enough with her and kind of ruined her legend. · 214 days ago ·

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mrsmaryzinke · 4everZenyatta, So it's okay for Vin here to tear down Ruffian (P.S. Vin it's nearly anniversary time), but it's not okay for Tim to be honest? Hmmm. · 214 days ago ·

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GooberNation · thats becuase people are babies when it comes to others expressing their own opinions.. thats a liberal for ya LOL ;) everyone will express theirs but a true sport will accept others opinion like its their own · 214 days ago ·

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jmcleav · Zenyatta's closing style is quite difficult to stay out of trouble, the pace in the race is not always in her favor, and don't fool yourself into thinking the game plan of other jocks and trainers was to take her down. It was her heart that made Zenyatta the champion she always will be remembered as. I'm no expert but I know when a champion brings tears to my eyes. · 214 days ago ·

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New York Vinnie · mrsmary - I'm sorry if you think I was "tearing down" Ruffian. I was just bringing out the facts. I've said the same things several times here. Yes, Ruffian was a fast horse. No, Ruffian was not the greatest female racehorse of all time. Yes, the match race should of never taken place. Yes, Ruffian was never tested. That's it. · 214 days ago ·

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timgsmith10 · In your opinion.. · 214 days ago ·

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New York Vinnie · goobernation - people are entitle to their own opinion. I agree. But opinions are like rear ends. · 214 days ago ·

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New York Vinnie · ...excuse me..."Everyone's got one". It's the facts that I'm after. · 214 days ago ·

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mrsmaryzinke · I'm not dead yet, Vin. I'm going by the facts. i saw Ruffian's races. Somehow, you looked at them, but didn't see what I saw. i do so wish my strays would just go ahead and come home. That was to them, not you, Vin. · 214 days ago ·

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4everzenyatta · Ah, but mrsmaryzinke, there is quite a difference between telling the truth and being full out rude. Part of me agrees with Vinnie, because Ruffian never did face the boy except in the Match, and before that she did exactly what you all are bashing Zenyatta for. I am not saying Ruffian wasn't a wonderful filly, because tehre is no deny that she was. But she never got to prove herself. Breaking records agains claimers and low grade stakes winners is not a very large feat. I love Ruffian, but I do believe that she doesn't deserve any more credit than Zenyatta does. I know I'm going to get torn apart for that comment, but that is my opinion and truly, you people can suck it. I don't care for any argument you make, I with all ym heart believe that Zenyatta is one of the greatest racehorses of all time, and your petty judgements really will not change that. All that your posts bashing me will do is make me laugh, because all you people are doing is making fools of yourselves. In case you cared ;) · 213 days ago ·

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mrsmaryzinke · 4ever, Girl, I have been to see the Queen in person-quite a story-at least for me anyway. Stock in Kleenex has to have gone up just from my usage of their tissues when reading her diary entries. I had my near heart-attack moments during many of her thrilling finishes of her races. How gorgeous she is. However, I don't rank any other female above Ruffian. I haven't seen one that I thought was better than her. Now, today is the anniversary of the match race, so I know you weren't trying to be full out rude by telling people to go suck it. Why would I bash you? You just said there was a difference between the truth and rudeness. Then, the "suck it" comment. You just bashed yourself. · 213 days ago ·

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4everzenyatta · I know that 'suck it' thing was out of line, I haven't been ahving the greatest day and had to blow off some steam, but truly, I do believe that Zenyatta and Ruffian really should rank the same, they are both amazing mares and deserve credit. Neither of them deserve 1s, they don't even deserve below 8s. · 213 days ago ·

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TheSecondBigRed · It's quite honestly amusing to read these comments, just to see how rude some people on here are. · 213 days ago ·

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icyhotboo · Watched Ruffian lope along in 2:27:4/5 on you-tube at 1 1/2 mile.Some of the top male 3yos never hit that speed all out.No matter who is actually "the best" the horses who have thrilled me in no particular order,Ruffian,Zenyatta,Rachel (my personal favorite) Genuine Risk,Personal Ensign,and many more who are to numerous to mention.Was a nice discussion as evidenced by the emotions. · 213 days ago ·

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mrsmaryzinke · sad correction: the anniversary of the match race is tomorrow · 213 days ago ·

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cocoa2 · You've forgotten Landaluce. · 5 days ago ·

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New York Vinnie · cocoa2 - many will never forget Landaluce. Me included. She was a sweet, black coated two year old filly out of Seattle Slew that captivated the west, having won five races by almost 50 lengths. She won her first race in 1:08 then came back a week later and won a Grade 1 race by 21 lengths in 1:08:1. Her last three races as a two year included race run in 1:21, 1:35 and 1:41. Uncle Mo, on the other hand, ran a 1:34.6 and and 1:42 in a mile and a mile and a sixteenth, and was considered the second coming of Spectacular Bid and Seattle Slew. Landaluce will never be forgotten. · 11 hours ago ·

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Golden Broom

Retired undefeated in 12 starts

Posted by cocoa2 · 13 hours ago ·

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Fast Freight

beautiful horse! I got to feed him! Thanks Harold Matthews & Peggy Hopwood.

Posted by StephanyRobinson

· 13 hours ago ·

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Exterminator

Such a great guy, and one of my personal favorites. I wonder what would have happened if the match race with Man O' War came through?

Posted by TheSecondBigRed · 347 days ago ·

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cocoa2 · All I know is Man O' War would be extended all right! · 1 day ago ·

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buckpasser · Most old timers who saw both horses race, like my grandfather, felt Old Bones would have cleaned Man o War's clock · 1 day ago ·

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footlick · There was alot more in Man O War's tank than he showed, so cleaning his clock may be a bit of an overstatement. Exterminator certainly would have been the best horse he faced, but Man O War would have been the best horse Exterminator faced too. Nobody, not even the people then, could really say who would have won. Riddle was insistent that it would be a weight for age and I believe longer than 10 furlongs, but I may be wrong about that. When Man O War would have had to start his 4 yr old year carrying 140 or more, Riddle chose to retire him. · 1 day ago ·

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travel_vic · Old Bones connections wanted the distance set at OVER 10 furlongs and that is when Riddle backed out for he knew at that distance, the younger colt would be vulnerable.....Anything shorted and the sone of Fair Play would simply run off and hiide. · 21 hours ago ·

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footlick · Interesting since Man O War bested the WR for 13 furlongs by 6 seconds that Riddle would be leery of running against Exterminator at longer than 10 furlongs. · 20 hours ago ·

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buckpasser · My grandfather worked for Ross who owned Sir Barton. While Vic you are speaking about the match race, the Saratoga Cup was where all three Sir Barton, Exterminator, Man o war would race. All three were entered, man o war was scratched and sir Barton as well. Exterminator won the race as well. As to the match race all three agreed, the distance of a mile and half was ok for Riddle, it was Kilmer who wanted a weight for age in the match race, NOT the distance that was the problem. Also Grantland Rice like David Alexander also felt Man o war would have lost to Exterminator.. I do not know where you get the distance was unacceptable to Riddle. · 19 hours ago ·

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travel_vic · p. 230 man O'War by Corothy Ours...Distnace was the first of Kilmer;s stikcing ponts (Exterminator); weight was second......"one report clained that Kilmer want a mile and 5/16ths. Four decades after both champions retired from racing journalist David Alexander would write that Kilemer had "pursed Riddle from track to track shaking fifty thousand dollasrs in his face and demanding he put up the same stake for a race between Man O'War and Exterminator weight for age. · 15 hours ago ·

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buckpasser · If you want a different version of the match race with Sir Barton, Man o war, and Exterminator read Boots and Saddles which is written by Ross' son and contains different information than Ours has in her book. Also for the record David Alexander stated that Kilmer chased Riddle around offering money for a match race, Dorothy Ours says that she can find no evidence of this. She clearly did not look far asit is in Boots and Saddles and also in Alexander's book about horse racing. The racing legends books which detail Exterminators life also say that Riddle agreed to the distance, but would not agree to handicap conditions · 14 hours ago ·

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buckpasser · And as to weight for age, Riddle wanted no part of Exterminator at weight for age as he scratched MOW from the Saratoga Cup to beat Hoodwink by a hundred lenghthsb · 14 hours ago ·

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buckpasser · In the Lawrence Realization. · 14 hours ago ·

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Kentucky Derby 2012 Workout Report, Feb 3 - Souper Speedy breezes 4f

Kentucky Derby 2012 workouts for Friday, February 3 Today's Derby contender works featured an easy four furlong breeze from G2 Remsen runner-up Souper Speedy. His juvenile form was flattered when Remsen show finisher El Padrino came back with an impressive allowance route win at Gulfstrea...Read More

Source: horseracingnation.com · Posted 16 hours ago ·

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ivanlsardi · cool I hope more workouts of rank horses · 15 hours ago ·

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Alternation makes return in Essex Handicap

The last time Oaklawn fans saw Alternation he was closing late to get fifth in the 2011 Arkansas Derby, a race that he seemed destined to win early in the season after two impressive allowance race victories. Pin Oak Stud’s regally bred son of Distorted Humor, now four, returns to Oaklawn ready to r...Read More

Posted 16 hours ago ·

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Racing at Santa Anita with Marc Doche: Silks debut with Way too Much

by MARC on FEBRUARY 3, 2012The only thing better than seeing my silks on the track for the first time will be seeing them in the winner's circle if we're lucky enough to get there.INFO!That’s all horse players want. Preferably, make it inside info. There’s even a show on HRTV called I...Read More

Source: pick4blog.com · Posted 16 hours ago ·

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BrianZipse · Good luck, Marc! · 16 hours ago ·

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Overdriven

“I just didn’t like the way he was moving last summer so I sent him home,” said Pletcher. “It wasn’t anything serious, nothing surgical, just some minor stuff. He still needs 30 days more on the farm and we might be a little too far behind schedule to make the Triple Crown.”

Posted by notobsessed · 17 hours ago ·

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Floridaf · That is disappointing. I had been looking forward to his 2012 debut and possibly seeing him make a Triple Crown run. · 17 hours ago ·

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Algorithms defeats Hansen in the Holy Bull!

El Padrino impresses in an allowance score at GP!

Active Power Rankings

Active power rankings are updated each Monday night. Also visit the Kentucky Derby 2012 contender rankings.

Rank

Rating

Silks

Horse / Sire

8.32

Frankel
Galileo

8.30

Black Caviar
Bel Esprit

8.23

Havre de Grace
Saint Liam

8.02

So You Think
High Chaparral

8.01

Amazombie
Northern Afleet

8.00

Union Rags
Dixie Union

8.00

Hansen
Tapit

7.98

Animal Kingdom
Leroidesanimaux

7.98

Awesome Feather
Awesome of Course

7.95

Sepoy
Elusive Quality

Video Handicapping

Is Hansen the real thing? What did the Holy Bull tell us?

Undefeated Watch

#	Undefeated	Trainer/Last Win
17	Black Caviar Bel Espirit	Peter Moody Essendon Mazda Australia S.
9	Frankel Galileo	Henry Cecil G1 QEII Stakes
9	Awesome Feather Smart Strike	Chad Brown Gazelle Handicap
6	Now I Know Pure Prize	Don Von Hemel Dixie Belle
5	Maybe Galileo	Aidan O'Brien Moyglare Stud Stakes
5	Dabirsim Hat Trick	Christophe Ferland Prix Lagardere
5	Trickmeister Proud Citizen	Richard E. Dutrow, Jr. Harlan's Holiday S.
4	My Miss Aurelia Smart Strike	Steve Asmussen BC Juvenile Fillies
3	Algorithms Bernardini	Todd Pletcher Holy Bull
3	Harbour Watch Acclamation (GB)	Richard Hannon Richmond Stakes
3	Agave Kiss Lion Heart	Rudy R. Rodriguez Ruthless S.
3	Gemologist Tiznow	Todd Pletcher Kentucky Jockey Club S.
2	Applauding Congrats	Al Stall, Jr. Allowance

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likin sparks · was actually 1/10 but who's counting anyways ;-) · 2 days ago ·


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likin sparks · 5 bullets straight in a line getting me excited! · 2 days ago ·


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Floridaf · I always hate when they post the works and then add late additions. At the time, it was 1/9. :-) I am also excited about the works. Sounds like he is ready for the Tampa Bay Stakes (NOT the GP Turf 'Cap anymore). · 2 days ago ·


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warrena · hansen one more try · 5 days ago ·


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cocoa2 · Union Rags + Hansen + Algorithms = A smashed record, as for who would win, heck if I know! · 5 days ago ·


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LAZMANNICK · I think Algorithms has a lot of upside and has done everything right. Excellent breeding by Bernardini and the dam has produced some decent progeny. However, I think that she has more of a sprinting and short distance influence with the likes of Gallant Romeo and Brown Berry and Sunny Romance in her pedigree and I don’t see where any of her progeny has won a stakes beyond 8.5F. In the Holy Bull the final quarter tailed off drastically IMO and even though Algorithms won convincingly, he still needed a personally timed 25.66 seconds to get home in a mile race. It'll be interesting to see how the Derby picture develops as others begin to show their mettle. I think I'm going to look west for the Derby winner this year. · 5 days ago ·


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warrena · could be a great one in the making · 5 days ago ·


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cocoa2 · I really hope this isn't a fluke. · 5 days ago ·


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Floridaf · Her smallest winning margin is 5 lengths, she has won on both a fast track and a sloppy track, and she beat a good field in the Forward Gal. So far, she looks legitimate. · 4 days ago ·


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likin sparks · His super charged engine was just to much for the Turbo Compressor...good race! · 6 days ago ·


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Ambitiousd · He looked great! Rated beautifully and pushed the third quarter in 22 and change. Way to go MMM · 6 days ago ·


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BrianZipse · Very surprised that he was not the favorite. · 6 days ago ·


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likin sparks · Brian, I think there was more hype over #3 Adios Charlie and #5 Turbo Compressor through the media and they overlooked how much MMM has matured even though he literally won't be 4 until June. · 6 days ago ·


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Floridaf · I agree with you there, likin sparks. Most forget that he was still technically two when he ran the TC campaign. Like Brian, I cannot believe that he was not the favor, but it worked out to the advantage of those of us that had faith in him. · 6 days ago ·


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icyhotboo · How would anyone not at that particular track know he has matured as the actual weight of the horses from race to race seems a little to much work for everyone to give to the "BETTOR" on the racing form and they have the gall to cry about losing busines especially with the 23.6% vigorish in the "luck six." Just plain stupid and greedy on both points.How much extra cost and work would it be for each track to weigh and publish the actual weight of the horses considering they do it anyway.If they did that with MMM he would have been 3/5, maybe there's my answer. · 6 days ago ·


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2/5	2012 San Antonio (G2) - PPs
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2/11	2012 San Marcos (G2) - PPs
2/11	2012 Hutcheson Stakes (G2) - PPs
2/11	2012 Gulfstream Park Turf H. (G1) - PPs

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